I'm curious if anyone would have pulled their weapon for this scenario had they been present. I'm currently waiting on my chl, and I was told in my class about all the legal ramifications and all that jazz about pulling your weapon. Clearly this lady needed help and no one was there. I'm just curious who here would or would not have pulled their weapon, and why.
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Re: Question for experienced CHL holders
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:27 pm
by mojo84
No. Would have rendered aid to her and done what I could to be a good witness. Only would draw my weapon if I thought her life was in imminent danger.
Re: Question for experienced CHL holders
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:51 pm
by texanjoker
I would recommend for a CHL holder to be a good witness and aid the elderly lady. Remember you are not required to take action. Now if you were the one being robbed like that, I would think you could protect yourself by displaying the weapon as that is a felony in progress. One thing to point out for the ladies, is that if you were carrying CHL in a purse, then you just got your gun taken from you.
Many years ago I did give chase once off duty in a purse snatching. When I caught the female her boyfriend appeared and threatened me with a knife. He immediately layed down on the ground when I ordered him to at gun point while telling him I was a police officer. The only thing he said to me was "you better be for real." The police got a 911 call about a man with a gun (me) and responded quickly. I put my gun away when they arrived and it all worked out. Both the male/female went to jail and the victim got her purse back. Side note she didn't even thank me.
Re: Question for experienced CHL holders
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:53 pm
by Redneck_Buddha
Another thing to keep in mind is the adage "no good deed goes unpunished".
Re: Question for experienced CHL holders
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:59 pm
by E.Marquez
Not being on the ground as that first responder and from the camera angle it,s just that much more difficult .. But from what I can see...no, I would not have drawn at the point the citizen in blue jacket came on scene.
If I felt the injured victom and myself was about to be run over by the suspect, then yes, I likley would have drawn...if the car moved backwards,, then hold fast... If it moved forward I would have likely fired to stop the threat.
Re: Question for experienced CHL holders
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:03 pm
by TexasCajun
It depends on the actual circumstances. If I'm present at the start of the altercation & see the purse-snatcher run up & grab the purse, then I possibly would intervene. But if I come up on the situation already in progress, I may relegate myself to being a good witness & rendering aid. And all of this assumes that I'm alone. If my wife and/or son are with me, I'm going to make sure that they aren't in harms way before doing anything else.
Re: Question for experienced CHL holders
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:34 pm
by texanjoker
TexasCajun wrote:It depends on the actual circumstances. If I'm present at the start of the altercation & see the purse-snatcher run up & grab the purse, then I possibly would intervene. But if I come up on the situation already in progress, I may relegate myself to being a good witness & rendering aid. And all of this assumes that I'm alone. If my wife and/or son are with me, I'm going to make sure that they aren't in harms way before doing anything else.
WELL SAID about your family . LA Sheriff's had a great off duty officer survival video many years ago. I would use that in teaching some officer survival courses to trainees. They had real deputies tell their story. It was tragic to watch. One had been going to a grocery store with his 8? year old daughter. 3 armed suspects came out that had just robbed the place. He engaged them when he didn't have to. During the gun fight his daughter died.
Re: Question for experienced CHL holders
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:43 pm
by MoJo
There was no reason to pull a gun in this whole clip. Be a good witness and help the victim.
Re: Question for experienced CHL holders
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:56 pm
by recaffeination
There's no reason to pull a gun if I see somebody laying on the ground in a parking lot. I mean, it could be a ploy to draw me in (like the stranded woman scam) but it's more likely they actually need some help.
I would more likely pull my phone and call 911.
Re: Question for experienced CHL holders
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:56 pm
by fickman
If I saw the whole thing and the perp was still close by, I might be inclined to punch her lights out. (Be it tactically wise or not, I know she might have an accomplice somewhere. . . but that'd be my honest inclination when the victim is elderly or a child.)
If she was already getting away, I'd write down the license plate or memorize as much as I could.
Then I'd lend aid to the victim, command somebody to call 911, and wait on the responders.
A good rule of thumb for CHLers is: until a life is being threatened, your best CC tool is your mobile phone.
Re: Question for experienced CHL holders
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:14 pm
by E.Marquez
MoJo wrote:There was no reason to pull a gun in this whole clip. Be a good witness and help the victim.
Did you not see the suspect in the multi thousand pound deadly weapon just inches from the Victim and 1st responder.
Yes as it turned out the suspect decided not to continue the attack, but that was only known after the attack was over.
Re: Question for experienced CHL holders
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:31 pm
by RPBrown
As to what I saw, deadly force was not justified on your part. Now, if it was my wife or mother and I was with her at the time, perhaps.
Re: Question for experienced CHL holders
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:33 pm
by RoyGBiv
I am not a lawyer.
This is NOT legal advice.
In my OPINION, the use of deadly force would be justified. The assailant was committing "Aggravated Robbery". As I watched the assailant get into her car I held my breath hoping that the victim wasn't about to get run over. I would most certainly have had the same fear had I been on the scene. Robbery --> Aggravated Robbery ---> Possible escalation to assault by vehicle/grievous bodily harm/homicide.
Whether and in what manner I would have acted in this situation depends on many of the circumstances mentioned earlier... 1. Did I see this from the beginning or did I come upon a woman laying on the ground?, 2. Is my family with me?, etc....
PC §9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:
(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;
(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or
(C) was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery
§ 29.03. AGGRAVATED ROBBERY. (a) A person commits an
offense if he commits robbery as defined in Section 29.02, and he:
(1) causes serious bodily injury to another;
(2) uses or exhibits a deadly weapon; or
(3) causes bodily injury to another person or
threatens or places another person in fear of imminent bodily
injury or death, if the other person is:
(A) 65 years of age or older; or
(B) a disabled person.
PC §9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.
(b) The actor's belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was used:
(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;
(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or
(C) was committing or attempting to commit an offense described by Subsection (a)(2)(B);
Re: Question for experienced CHL holders
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:39 pm
by steveincowtown
I would not have drawn my weapon, and would have been a good witness.
That being said, although I would not have drawn my weapon I would have tried to intervene in some way. How I would have intervened would vary greatly depending on when I arrived at the situation.
Re: Question for experienced CHL holders
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:19 pm
by mojo84
E.Marquez wrote:
MoJo wrote:There was no reason to pull a gun in this whole clip. Be a good witness and help the victim.
Did you not see the suspect in the multi thousand pound deadly weapon just inches from the Victim and 1st responder.
Yes as it turned out the suspect decided not to continue the attack, but that was only known after the attack was over.
Based on the video, what makes you think the lady that came upon the scene actually saw the purse snatching? Looks to me like she came upon a woman laying in the parking lot. She could have just passed out or had a heart acttack. In those cases, why would you pull a gun and consider shooting someone?
It may different if you are speaking as if you were right there and saw the whole thing happen but it does not appear there was anyone there in that position.
I didn't see anything that makes me think drawing a gun would be justified. IF I would have seen the purse snatchin as it happened, I cannot say definitely what I would have done for sure but I do know, I hope I would have rendered aid and tried to get as much info as possible while pulling the lady out of the way of the vehicle.
. LA Sheriff's had a great off duty officer survival video many years ago. I would use that in teaching some officer survival courses to trainees. They had real deputies tell their story. It was tragic to watch. One had been going to a grocery store with his 8? year old daughter. 3 armed suspects came out that had just robbed the place. He engaged them when he didn't have to. During the gun fight his daughter died.