What could I have done if this situation went south?

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proheath
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What could I have done if this situation went south?

#1

Post by proheath »

This is very wordy, and I apologize in advance. I'd like feedback, so please read and respond if you have time.

A few months ago, my roommate, his young female cousin, and I made a trip to San Marcos from our residence in Lockhart to indulge in some Pluckers chicken wings. I wasn't driving, so I helped myself to a few Shiner drafts. :cheers2:
It was about 11:30 when we left Pluckers, obviously dark.
We took a "shortcut" home that weaves through a couple of county roads that passes through the small town of Maxwell that is home to no more than 500 people.
As we're on that road, a small, dark animal ran right in front of our moving vehicle. Of course we make contact with the little beast doing about 65mph or so.
Immediately, a terrible scraping sound became audible, and even as the passenger, I could feel the vehicle meeting some serious resistance. It felt as if whatever we hit was stuck to the car and we were dragging it. We pull off the road, driver puts on his flashers, and he and I get out to see what in the world is going on with his ride.

It turns out that the animal we hit was a small hog. The impact shattered the bolts that hold the metal undercarriage to the frame of the car, as well as bent it to where it was touching the ground whether the vehicle was in motion or not.
We tried to jimmy rig the sheet metal by bending it upwards to keep it from contacting ground, as we were about 10 miles from town and all felt it was an issue that would best be settled the following day. A temporary fix was all that was necessary.
Our quick solution didn't work, so I started phoning friends for a ride out of there.

Now we were left with what to do with the vehicle in the meantime. As our current location was just after the peak of a hill on an already curvy and otherwise sketchy road, we felt it was best to get this thing as far away from traffic as possible. There was a dirt driveway about 20 yards ahead, so we pulled into it.
This driveway had about a car width of knee-high grass on both sides, so we felt it was best to park there, so our vehicle wouldn't impede the resident's use of the driveway. The driveway itself was about 100 yards long, and it led up to a medium sized house. There were no lights on in the house, but there were 2 visible trucks at the end of the driveway. Looked like someone was home, but likely all asleep.
The driver at this point starts locking up valuables that weren't necessary for him to retrieve from the vehicle so they remained somewhat safe overnight. While he's doing this, I write out a little note explaining the situation and how the car will be gone in the morning. I intended to go and leave it in a conspicuous place on the residence and make no contact whatsoever. No need to bother these fine folks with our problem, right?

As I'm approaching the residence, I hear barking that's clearly coming from outside. I can't see if the dog's restrained, so I obviously retreated back to the car. The dog continues to bark in a very loud, obnoxious manner. Sure enough, lights start coming on from within the house. Then a porch light turns on, the front door swings open, and someone emerges and briskly walks to the side of the house.
Even with the new light, not much can be seen from the far end of the driveway where we're at. About 30 seconds after the resident exited the house, a flashlight turns on and is clearly approaching the scene, along with the incessant barking that's getting louder and louder as the light gets closer. I'm sitting in the passenger seat as this is all happening, while the driver is standing outside the vehicle, ready to make contact with the resident.

At this point, I had no idea what we were about to encounter. Could be a friendly; could be a threat. The man had a dog with him (which I soon found to be some kind of mutt with a significant amount of German shepherd [a dog I DO NOT want to tick off]), a bright flashlight (which limited my own visibility while trying to determine what kind of person we were dealing with), and it was safe to assume he was armed -- be it a handgun, knife, etc.
I was armed with nothing but a 4" Gerber fixed blade that I had on my belt. I did not have my CHL at the time, and even if I did, I would not be carrying as I
My buddy, the driver, was just standing there, arms crossed, with apparently no intent to make it known that we meant no harm.
My friend is a good guy; he's just not exactly the brightest crayon in the box, nor does he possess adequate skills to diffuse a nasty situation.
Seeing as allowing him to make first contact with the guy wouldn't be be the best of ideas, I promptly got out of the vehicle and began to wave to the guy that was hastily approaching us while still behind the now open car door. I called out some friendly words, something along the lines of "Hey sir, how are you doin'? We're having car trouble."

I received no response. I stepped out from behind the car door to take "point" as I knew I was the only armed one in the group, even if it was only with a small knife. As I was about even with the tip of the hood of the car, the approaching man yells out in a seemingly hostile manner, "You can stay right where you're at, bud." By now, he was close enough that he was now illuminated by the vehicle's dim parking lights and flashing hazards. I calmly raised both my hands to be slightly below shoulder level to illustrate that I did not have a weapon in hand, while trying to calmly but quickly explain the situation.
Thin entire time, his dog is still barking and checking us out.

As I'm giving my explanation, this guy is way too jumpy for my liking. He's got a light pointed at me, and his free hand behind his back. I make it known that we are simply waiting on our ride back to town to arrive, and that we are expecting company at any minute. This guy wants proof for every piece of the story, and clearly doesn't believe us. He then starts circling the car, shining his light inside to see what all was inside. He sees the young cousin in the back seat and doesn't even mention anything of her presence. As his attention is diverted, I swear this guy even says "Don't make any sudden moves, or my dog will bite your ****ing hand off."

He kneels down in front of the car to see if the damage I described was legitimate, and even went as far as walking up the road to see the hog carcass. Shortly after doing so, a mutual friend of me and the driver showed up and we all got the heck outta dodge. :leaving

The guy was a butthead. Granted, he had the right to be. We were on his property in the middle of the night -- he had no idea if we were friend or foe. However, for a great deal of the time spent in the confrontation, I felt that I had a legitimate reason to fear for the safety of myself, my friend, and his kid cousin.

Had I been carrying that night, and he drew his weapon on us, would I be justified in pulling my own?
I believe it goes without saying that I would have done everything possible to avoid having to unholster, but once a gun is pulled on me or a friend of mine, I feel that I am left with no other choice.
I'm almost certain that had I drawn, fired, and hit the guy, I would have legally been in the wrong. I technically had no legal right to be there.
However, my safety and morals do indeed take precedence over law.
I signed on to carry in public knowing and accepting that shooting someone who means me or loved ones harm may not always be legally justified; I am fully prepared to accept consequences for doing so.

In the end, I'll know in my heart that I've done what's right.

Has anyone had a similar or related incident? I'd love to hear feedback.
I had just taken my CHL course at the time, and I've been giving this instance much thought since then.
Now that I'm able to carry, I must have a plan of action for every situation imaginable.
This is one of those that I am just not sure about what can be done with the least amount of ramifications.

MotherBear
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Re: What could I have done if this situation went south?

#2

Post by MotherBear »

Personally, I think I would have stayed away from the house and left your note on the truck somewhere (under the windshield wiper?). Maybe even called the local law enforcement and told them what was up in case the property owner called them in the morning. As a property owner I'd be a little leery of someone parked at the end of my driveway at night but even more so if they approached close enough to the house to get the dog started.

Otherwise I suppose I'd have done more or less what you did: keep my hands in sight and try to be as non-threatening as possible. Maybe offer to show him some sort of identification or give him your contact information in case he has any concerns about when you're moving the truck? But mostly I'd just have stayed away from the house to begin with. You approach someone's house out in the country when it's clear everyone's in bed for the night and I think you're going to create suspicion regardless of the situation. He's got his family in the house, and his crops and/or livestock out in the fields or outbuildings, and he doesn't want to take any chances. For all he knows, you're idiots who wanted to go cow tipping -- that can cause some serious damage to a cow. In his situation I don't imagine I'd go back to bed until you were gone, although I'd try to be polite about it.
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Jim Beaux
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Re: What could I have done if this situation went south?

#3

Post by Jim Beaux »

SNIP
proheath wrote:
Had I been carrying that night, and he drew his weapon on us, would I be justified in pulling my own?
I believe it goes without saying that I would have done everything possible to avoid having to unholster, but once a gun is pulled on me or a friend of mine, I feel that I am left with no other choice.
I'm almost certain that had I drawn, fired, and hit the guy, I would have legally been in the wrong. I technically had no legal right to be there.
However, my safety and morals do indeed take precedence over law.
I wouldnt have approached the house, I would have honked the horn until someone came out.

In regards to your above question. If the guy had a gun on you he could have shot you a dozen times before you could have touched your gun. This guy didnt just didnt decide to murder someone. He was roused from sleep & was merely acting to protect his family & property. Calm the guy down and reassure him. Pulling a weapon when youre the interloper & have a gun pointed at you is....in generous terms :tiphat: ...ahem...poor judgement. :nono:

The fact that youre here telling the story is proof that you handled the situation correctly.
“In the world of lies, truth-telling is a hanging offense"
~Unknown

killerfly128
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Re: What could I have done if this situation went south?

#4

Post by killerfly128 »

Sigh.

I can't say I blame the guy. had the same thing happened in front of my home I would have the same guarded response. I can promise I would have had a gun on me but would have been much less callus. Now if he had drawn, the wrong move to make would have been drawing on him. The best bet at that point would have been to diffuse the situation, back away, and call the police. Justified in drawing on him had he drawn on you? Maybe by the letter of the law but common sense says otherwise. (Keep in mind I am not a lawyer) I wasn't very clear as to if you were on his property or on a sidewalk/public road during your interaction. If I am reading it right you had pulled onto his property.

There is ALWAYS another choice. It might be the right one, might not be. That is where the most powerful weapon comes into play. Keeping your wits about you and making logical and rational decisions. Your morals DO NOT take any precedence over law. Ever. That mentality is a darn quick way to end up in the news. I would highly recommend to you to re-evaluate your view of what a CHL holder is really about. It isn't something that "you sign on" to do. It is a life choice that you make to decrease the likelihood of ending up in a bad place. The fact that you literally said that you have accepted that you are prepared to defend yourself when it wasn't legally justified really concerns me.

I am not trying to bring you down, but you need to hear what I am saying. Please think about it not only for your sake, but for the people in your life's sake as well as fellow CHL holders.

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Re: What could I have done if this situation went south?

#5

Post by Cedar Park Dad »

killerfly128 wrote:Sigh.

I can't say I blame the guy. had the same thing happened in front of my home I would have the same guarded response. I can promise I would have had a gun on me but would have been much less callus. Now if he had drawn, the wrong move to make would have been drawing on him. The best bet at that point would have been to diffuse the situation, back away, and call the police. Justified in drawing on him had he drawn on you? Maybe by the letter of the law but common sense says otherwise. (Keep in mind I am not a lawyer) I wasn't very clear as to if you were on his property or on a sidewalk/public road during your interaction. If I am reading it right you had pulled onto his property.

There is ALWAYS another choice. It might be the right one, might not be. That is where the most powerful weapon comes into play. Keeping your wits about you and making logical and rational decisions. Your morals DO NOT take any precedence over law. Ever. That mentality is a darn quick way to end up in the news. I would highly recommend to you to re-evaluate your view of what a CHL holder is really about. It isn't something that "you sign on" to do. It is a life choice that you make to decrease the likelihood of ending up in a bad place. The fact that you literally said that you have accepted that you are prepared to defend yourself when it wasn't legally justified really concerns me.

I am not trying to bring you down, but you need to hear what I am saying. Please think about it not only for your sake, but for the people in your life's sake as well as fellow CHL holders.

Wo wo but correct me if I am wrong here but:
1. He wasn't CHLing (aka he was obeying the letter and intent of the law).
2. He tried to act appropriately in an unusual situation and his actions were attempts to diffuse the situation.
3. Now that the situation has passed he's asking for advice.

Legally he is fully justified to defend himself. He has made no criminal action whatsover. Farmer Bob coming out and drawing on the poster would have been the one committing a felony, not him.

Edit: Me myself. Once I had called for help I would have just stayed in the vehicle with the hazards on, and left a note on the truck itself. That is good advice. You had good intent, but at night people get scared (and with reason).

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Re: What could I have done if this situation went south?

#6

Post by killerfly128 »

Cedar Park Dad wrote:Wo wo but correct me if I am wrong here but:
1. He wasn't CHLing (aka he was obeying the letter and intent of the law).
2. He tried to act appropriately in an unusual situation and his actions were attempts to diffuse the situation.
3. Now that the situation has passed he's asking for advice.

Legally he is fully justified to defend himself. He has made no criminal action whatsover. Farmer Bob coming out and drawing on the poster would have been the one committing a felony, not him.
1.)No, he wasn't carrying. I was making the remark that I understand "Farmer Bob's" response. I would have taken the same super defensive approach to a stranger parking their car on my property after dark when I am sleeping. I did say that I would have been less of a jerk about inquiring why they were on my property.

2.)While I kind of agree with you here I feel like some of the clues in the original post make me think that the body language used when interacting with the landowner might have created more tension than intended. This is why I was stressing using your most powerful weapon (the mind). I personally thing the entire situation could have been handled much differently on the part of the original poster and the other occupants of the car. First big mistake was parking on someones land without permission in a self described sketchy area. (unless I miss-read that as well)

3.) I gathered, thus my post. I think I addressed all the points he was looking for advice on.

Legally yes, he is justified to defend himself as long as he is not breaking the law. Had the homeowner told them to leave at any point (it wasn't mentioned, but if the homeowner failed to do so if he felt uncomfortable that was a failure point on his part) the original poster would have been criminally trespassing. If that was the case then had the homeowner drawn on them and the original poster reciprocated the OP would have been 100% wrong in doing so. The point of a CHL is to get you out of bad situations, not get in a gun battle because your morals dictate that you not retreat. I don't see how "Farmer Bob" would have been committing a felony by drawing if he told the OP to leave and felt in danger of his and his families safety was in jeopardy. Had the interaction taken place in a public area such as the street, then yes "Farmer Bob" would have been wrong.
Sec. 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person:
(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.

EDIT TO RESPOND TO YOUR EDIT:
Edit: Me myself. Once I had called for help I would have just stayed in the vehicle with the hazards on, and left a note on the truck itself. That is good advice. You had good intent, but at night people get scared (and with reason).
Agreed with you here. Another point is that I wouldn't have pulled the truck onto someones property. I would have written a note and left one on the dash and found a way to fix one to the drivers side window.
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Re: What could I have done if this situation went south?

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Post by baldeagle »

I think the problem with this situation, as you describe it, is that once guns are drawn and fired, all bets are off. For sure it's going to the grand jury, and you could easily be charged with a crime. I think it's equally possible that the homeowner could be charged, since you made it clear that you meant no harm. But, in the end, someone is going to end up with holes in them, and that's never good for anyone, especially in the country where help is far away and you could bleed to death before it arrives.

Of the suggestions that have been made, I think calling 911 is probably the most sensible. I think you would have been better off just leaving a note on the car and not disturbing the property owner. Waking someone up in the middle of the night will cause unpredictability at a minimum and may end in a life threatening or even life ending encounter.
The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation where the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. James Madison
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proheath
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Re: What could I have done if this situation went south?

#8

Post by proheath »

killerfly128 wrote:I wasn't very clear as to if you were on his property or on a sidewalk/public road during your interaction. If I am reading it right you had pulled onto his property.
This is debatable. The gravel driveway went all the way out to the county road. Where county property ends and his property began is unclear. It was near the edge of both. The grassy shoulder off of the actual road was moreso a ditch than a shoulder. Where the shoulder met this man's driveway, it was much more level ground.

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proheath
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Re: What could I have done if this situation went south?

#9

Post by proheath »

killerfly128 wrote:Sigh.
I am not trying to bring you down, but you need to hear what I am saying. Please think about it not only for your sake, but for the people in your life's sake as well as fellow CHL holders.
I hear you, loud and clear.

Look, the law does what it can to protect the interest of the good guy, but not 100% of the time. My morals protect the interest of myself and fellow man (the good guys) 100% of the time.

I read a story not long ago about a doctor that worked in a hospital with 30.06 signage (or similar legal signage in a different jurisdiction)
He was in fact illegally carrying a handgun. An active shooter became present in the facility, and the doctor drew and fired, saving who knows how many lives.

This situation here is exactly what I mean. Should the guy have been carrying? Well, maybe not, but thank God he was.

Maybe I worded my point poorly, but this is what it meant.

*I will try to find the source of this story if anyone is interested.

killerfly128
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Re: What could I have done if this situation went south?

#10

Post by killerfly128 »

proheath wrote:
killerfly128 wrote:I wasn't very clear as to if you were on his property or on a sidewalk/public road during your interaction. If I am reading it right you had pulled onto his property.
This is debatable. The gravel driveway went all the way out to the county road. Where county property ends and his property began is unclear. It was near the edge of both. The grassy shoulder off of the actual road was moreso a ditch than a shoulder. Where the shoulder met this man's driveway, it was much more level ground.
Still an unnecessary risk IMO. In the city it wouldn't really be much issue but in the country things change, property lines are kind of ambiguous. You made it seem as though you knew you pulled onto his property. Regardless of where the car was you did say that you were walking up to the house. Did he at any point ask or tell you to leave?

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Re: What could I have done if this situation went south?

#11

Post by killerfly128 »

proheath wrote:
killerfly128 wrote:Sigh.
I am not trying to bring you down, but you need to hear what I am saying. Please think about it not only for your sake, but for the people in your life's sake as well as fellow CHL holders.
I hear you, loud and clear.

Look, the law does what it can to protect the interest of the good guy, but not 100% of the time. My morals protect the interest of myself and fellow man (the good guys) 100% of the time.

I read a story not long ago about a doctor that worked in a hospital with 30.06 signage (or similar legal signage in a different jurisdiction)
He was in fact illegally carrying a handgun. An active shooter became present in the facility, and the doctor drew and fired, saving who knows how many lives.

This situation here is exactly what I mean. Should the guy have been carrying? Well, maybe not, but thank God he was.

Maybe I worded my point poorly, but this is what it meant.

*I will try to find the source of this story if anyone is interested.

That is incredibly different. I don't look down on someone that rolls with the "concealed is concealed" mantra. I can get behind that thought process. While I want to protect the interest of my fellow man, my fellow man's interests are not worth my freedom. Mine and my families are.

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Re: What could I have done if this situation went south?

#12

Post by Cedar Park Dad »

baldeagle wrote:I think the problem with this situation, as you describe it, is that once guns are drawn and fired, all bets are off. For sure it's going to the grand jury, and you could easily be charged with a crime. I think it's equally possible that the homeowner could be charged, since you made it clear that you meant no harm. But, in the end, someone is going to end up with holes in them, and that's never good for anyone, especially in the country where help is far away and you could bleed to death before it arrives.

Of the suggestions that have been made, I think calling 911 is probably the most sensible. I think you would have been better off just leaving a note on the car and not disturbing the property owner. Waking someone up in the middle of the night will cause unpredictability at a minimum and may end in a life threatening or even life ending encounter.

Agreed. :cheers2: And that goes back to the "use your brain" part. Right, wrong, no reason for it to be an issue if you can avoid the issue in the first place.
I could see pulling onto property in the interest of saefty (if nothing else the something of someone else driving along that night). Stay in the vehicle, keep your flashers on (call the police if you are actually on their property - another good idea), but don't blind the house with your headlights. Leave a note and get out of there.

Now here's a follow up. If he's on their property, would it be better to stay in the truck or physically walk off their property and stay in the road? Recommendations?

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Re: What could I have done if this situation went south?

#13

Post by killerfly128 »

Cedar Park Dad wrote:Now here's a follow up. If he's on their property, would it be better to stay in the truck or physically walk off their property and stay in the road? Recommendations?
Stay in the truck with the motor off, window cracked, interior light on, and call the police as soon as you see a weapon. As long as you are polite and show you are not a threat you should be able to defuse the situation without being any threat because your flashers are on, he can see your hands, and you are not able to take an aggressive posture. If the truck HAD to be parked on dude's property, this is how i would have gone about it. Personally I would have left a note on the dash, and under the wiper or on the drivers window and left. Trying to leave a note on the house was a poor decision I think.

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proheath
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Re: What could I have done if this situation went south?

#14

Post by proheath »

killerfly, I'm going to cease response to the topic of law vs moral as I don't feel I am being understood correctly.

Just know that my piece will not leave its resting place on my side until my life or a loved one's life is at stake. At which point, weapon's hot and someone's about to be perforated, regardless of any possible consequences. Would I much rather it be crystal clear to all following investigations that I was 100% in the right? You betcha. However, I'd rather spend the rest of my life in a federal prison knowing that me and my loved ones are still alive and well than to lose them because by defending them and myself, my actions were not legally justified.

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Re: What could I have done if this situation went south?

#15

Post by killerfly128 »

proheath wrote:killerfly, I'm going to cease response to the topic of law vs moral as I don't feel I am being understood correctly.

Just know that my piece will not leave its resting place on my side until my life or a loved one's life is at stake. At which point, weapon's hot and someone's about to be perforated, regardless of any possible consequences. Would I much rather it be crystal clear to all following investigations that I was 100% in the right? You betcha. However, I'd rather spend the rest of my life in a federal prison knowing that me and my loved ones are still alive and well than to lose them because by defending them and myself, my actions were not legally justified.
Fair enough. Your initial responses came off with a tone that is very indicative of a new CHLer with limited life experience. It is a viewpoint I run into alarmingly often with younger CHLers (mind you at 30 I am still a baby compared to some of the folks here). Your last post was more clear and I can understand that thought process although my family and myself are the only ones I would consider stepping over a potential line for. Everyone else I will do my darnedest to ensure I am well within the law.
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