Citizen's Police Academy - carry or not?

[jmra]

Inside a police station is one place I'd be perfectly comfortable not being armed.

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GOOD ANSWER!!!!

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[kg5ie]

I believe there are two discussion points going on here. One, the actual Citizens Police Academy usually conducted by the PD. Normally a series of classroom training sessions held and conducted by the PD. Next, the actual Citizens Police Academy Alumni Association itself. The group that performs activities supporting the PD. The CPAAA is normally a 501c3 non-profit organization formed to support and fund-raise for the PD. That is the group that will have the by-laws. They normally have a liaison officer who works with them and coordinates their volunteer efforts.

So there are actually two questions being discussed.

Should / can you carry during the PD conducted training classes?

and

Should /can you carry while performing volunteer duties involving the CPAAA?

Two distinctly different issues.

[Waco1959]

Should / can you carry during the PD conducted training classes?

and

Should /can you carry while performing volunteer duties involving the CPAAA?

Two distinctly different issues.

In Waco the CPA classes are mostly held in the PD and past the area where you are buzzed in. When I was called to confirm my place in the class I was told we could not carry during the class. When discussing the CPAAA during the class we were told that the association rules did not allow concealed carry at any CPAAA function or during any activities, assisting the police or not.

I enjoyed the class but didn't bother with the "Graduation" since I did not intend to join the CPAAA.

We were also given the same no firearms any time info for the Citizens on Patrol program.

I would still recommend the CPA classes to anyone with any interest at all in their local PD. I'd even recommend the Waco CPA classes now that the PD has moved to a better location and cars in their parking lot don't get broken into nearly as often......

[mloamiller]

So there are actually two questions being discussed.

Should / can you carry during the PD conducted training classes?

and

Should /can you carry while performing volunteer duties involving the CPAAA?

The more I think about it, I think the real question is this - can the CPA classes be declared off-limits to CHL carry, assuming the location is not specifically barred by state law? If it were a public establishment such as restaurant, they have the right to bar CHL carry, but they have to do it in a very specific way (i.e. 30.06) or it isn't legally effective. In the case of a a state/city owned building, the law specifically says they can't declare it off limits. Is that correct, or do I misunderstand the law in this regard?

Another way to put it - if the law clearly states I can carry in this specific venue (unsecured portion of a police station), do they have the right to create additional rules that trump the law, saying I can't? I'm not trying to be belligerent about this, and as I have noted, there are no rules posted one way or the other (that could change at the first class, of course). I just don't want to assume that I should give up my right if there is no real reason to do so.

[Keith B]

So there are actually two questions being discussed.

Should / can you carry during the PD conducted training classes?

and

Should /can you carry while performing volunteer duties involving the CPAAA?

The more I think about it, I think the real question is this - can the CPA classes be declared off-limits to CHL carry, assuming the location is not specifically barred by state law? If it were a public establishment such as restaurant, they have the right to bar CHL carry, but they have to do it in a very specific way (i.e. 30.06) or it isn't legally effective. In the case of a a state/city owned building, the law specifically says they can't declare it off limits. Is that correct, or do I misunderstand the law in this regard?

Another way to put it - if the law clearly states I can carry in this specific venue (unsecured portion of a police station), do they have the right to create additional rules that trump the law, saying I can't? I'm not trying to be belligerent about this, and as I have noted, there are no rules posted one way or the other (that could change at the first class, of course). I just don't want to assume that I should give up my right if there is no real reason to do so.

Legally, they can't declare it off limits if in a government building unless they post a 30.06 on the meeting of a government entity. I guess it could be considered that, but highly unlikely they would. That is usually reserved for city council meetings or P&Z meetings, etc. At a private location they can post 30.06 or verbally tell you you can't carry if they are in control of the location at the time.

HOWEVER, they CAN tell you that you can't carry in the CPA and not allow you to participate in the program. There is no law that prevents them from doing that.

[mloamiller]

HOWEVER, they CAN tell you that you can't carry in the CPA and not allow you to participate in the program. There is no law that prevents them from doing that.

That's the real question, and what I don't understand is how they could. 30.06 states:

Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN.
(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
....
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying...

Doesn't (e) at the end clearly state that there is no trespass by a CHL in that scenario? If so, under what authority can they they tell me I can't carry?

[Keith B]

HOWEVER, they CAN tell you that you can't carry in the CPA and not allow you to participate in the program. There is no law that prevents them from doing that.

That's the real question, and what I don't understand is how they could. 30.06 states:

Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN.
(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
....
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying...

Doesn't (e) at the end clearly state that there is no trespass by a CHL in that scenario? If so, under what authority can they they tell me I can't carry?

You would not legally be trespassing and violating the law. BUT, there is no law that says they have to accept you in the program and in turn would be able to expel you from it if you break any of their rules they establish. You just would not LEGALLY be trespassing by carrying in a pubic area of the police station or government building.

[mloamiller]

... there is no law that says they have to accept you in the program and in turn would be able to expel you from it if you break any of their rules they establish.

That's the part I'm not sure I agree with, based on my understanding of the intent behind the law. The law states I can carry a concealed firearm in the state of Texas, except where specifically barred by law, or where the proper notice is given (30.06). However, the 30.06 section specifically states that it can't be applied to a location that is "is owned or leased by a governmental entity". To me, that is the state's way of saying that those locations can't be declared off-limits. If that wasn't the intent, then there wouldn't be any reason to include the exception paragraph in the first place.

If the law says a 30.06 can't be applied, but they can create other rules that accomplish the same thing, isn't that circumventing the law?

[mojo84]

... there is no law that says they have to accept you in the program and in turn would be able to expel you from it if you break any of their rules they establish.

That's the part I'm not sure I agree with, based on my understanding of the intent behind the law. The law states I can carry a concealed firearm in the state of Texas, except where specifically barred by law, or where the proper notice is given (30.06). However, the 30.06 section specifically states that it can't be applied to a location that is "is owned or leased by a governmental entity". To me, that is the state's way of saying that those locations can't be declared off-limits. If that wasn't the intent, then there wouldn't be any reason to include the exception paragraph in the first place.

If the law says a 30.06 can't be applied, but they can create other rules that accomplish the same thing, isn't that circumventing the law?

You do not have to participate if you do not like the rules and they do not have to allow you to participate. The citizens police academies are not an official obligation or duty of law enforcement organizations/agencies. It's an extra they do to inform and improve relations with the non-law enforcement community they serve. If one doesn't like the rules, don't sign up. I do not see it as having anything to do with 30.06.

If they had put it in the rules or said for us not to carry, I would have followed the rules. Since they didn't mention it in the multiple times the rules were shared with us and they knew several of us had CHLs, I didn't have a problem carrying and they didn't either as a couple of the deputies and the sheriff knew I was.

[Keith B]

... there is no law that says they have to accept you in the program and in turn would be able to expel you from it if you break any of their rules they establish.

That's the part I'm not sure I agree with, based on my understanding of the intent behind the law. The law states I can carry a concealed firearm in the state of Texas, except where specifically barred by law, or where the proper notice is given (30.06). However, the 30.06 section specifically states that it can't be applied to a location that is "is owned or leased by a governmental entity". To me, that is the state's way of saying that those locations can't be declared off-limits. If that wasn't the intent, then there wouldn't be any reason to include the exception paragraph in the first place.

If the law says a 30.06 can't be applied, but they can create other rules that accomplish the same thing, isn't that circumventing the law?

OK, they can't prohibit you from carrying in the location that is open to the public. But they CAN prohibit you from participation or being in the CPA, for whatever reason they want. And if a location is not open to the public, which the CPA class would be only for those participating, then they can have you arrested for trespass; NOT because you were carrying, just because you were asked to leave and refused.

[mloamiller]

I stopped by the police station today to see where the classes will be held. The "community room" is open to the public - the door to the building is open (don't have to be buzzed in), there is a receptionist but you can simply walk right up the stairs to the room. However, the building is 30.06 posted, which it shouldn't be. That doesn't change the legality of carrying, but it annoys me - of all places where the law should be understood and followed, it's a police station.