Discharged "under honorable conditions" = not "honorably"

[loren]

CHL licensing defines that a military discharge "under honorable conditions" does not mean "honorably discharged" and hence does not qualify for the veteran's discount. I believe the licensing department's interpretation of the law is incorrect. I did receive the GI Bill for education and home loan but cannot receive the veteran's discount for the license fee. Does DPS CHL policy seem inconsistent?

UPDATE 4/16/15:
An aid to Texas Senator Campbell, Chair of the Senate Committee on Veteran Affairs & Military Installations, and I assume the senator as well, agrees that the law does intend for veterans with a discharge "under honorable conditions" to be included as "honorably discharged" and hence eligible for the CHL veteran's fee. The senator's aid informed this department's manager, however that word has not yet been distributed to the rank and file. So you can say you heard it here first.

[baldeagle]

Here's what the Fort Hood Sentinel says about this type of discharge:

In contrast, a “General, Under Honorable Conditions” Discharge (commonly referred to as a General Discharge) is for service members whose service was satisfactory, but involved situations where the Soldier’s conduct and/or performance of duty were not so meritorious to warrant an Honorable Discharge. Recipients of General Discharges usually have engaged in minor misconduct or have received nonjudicial punishment under Article 15, UCMJ. While the “under honorable conditions” terminology is slightly confusing, there is a clear disadvantage to receiving a General Discharge in contrast to an Honorable Discharge. While recipients of a General Discharge will receive entitlement to benefits such as VA medical and dental services, VA home loans and burial in national cemeteries, they will not receive educational benefits under either the Montgomery or Post-9/11 GI Bill.

Additionally, there can be quite a stigma attached to having not received an Honorable Discharge. This stigma can have negative consequences while searching for work or applying for school.

So there is a difference between the two, and that seems to accord with DPS' interpretation.

[louisf1]

Loren, a general discharge, otherwise known as under honorable conditions is normally given for a reason. In other words the character of service had something in it that caused it to not be a straight honorable discharge. The law states that you need to have an honorable discharge which is actually higher standing than under honorable. Hence the reason for not receiving the discount. Here is some info I found on the fort hood website to help a bit.


"In contrast, a “General, Under Honorable Conditions” Discharge (commonly referred to as a General Discharge) is for service members whose service was satisfactory, but involved situations where the Soldier’s conduct and/or performance of duty were not so meritorious to warrant an Honorable Discharge. Recipients of General Discharges usually have engaged in minor misconduct or have received nonjudicial punishment under Article 15, UCMJ. While the “under honorable conditions” terminology is slightly confusing, there is a clear disadvantage to receiving a General Discharge in contrast to an Honorable Discharge. While recipients of a General Discharge will receive entitlement to benefits such as VA medical and dental services, VA home loans and burial in national cemeteries, they will not receive educational benefits under either the Montgomery or Post-9/11 GI Bill"

[loren]

My point though is that the law does not specify a veteran must have an "Honorable Discharge" but that he/she was honorably discharged. My discharge does have the word "honorable" in it.

[baldeagle]

My point though is that the law does not specify a veteran must have an "Honorable Discharge" but that he/she was honorably discharged. My discharge does have the word "honorable" in it.

Yes, but your discharge is a General Discharge, not an Honorable Discharge. If you're not satisfied with that, contact DPS and ask them for clarification. As quoted earlier, the difference between the two affects what benefits you have access to. Apparently the veterans discount for the CHL is one of those that's only available to honorably discharged veterans.

[louisf1]

Like Bald Eagle said, a General Discharge is not the same as an Honorable Discharge. Otherwise there would not be two classifications. While you were able to use the Gi Bill there are going to be some places where you don't get the full benefit. Maybe you can look into having the discharge upgraded.

[mojo84]

My point though is that the law does not specify a veteran must have an "Honorable Discharge" but that he/she was honorably discharged. My discharge does have the word "honorable" in it.

What did the DPS say when you contacted them to discuss this?

[E.Marquez]

My point though is that the law does not specify a veteran must have an "Honorable Discharge" but that he/she was honorably discharged. My discharge does have the word "honorable" in it.

The point is, Texas is choosing to honor those that served and has set the bar for that honor at an Honorable Discharge .
Having dealt with many, many service members being separated early I can say for sure, a General discharge was given for a reason,

And in 28 years 8 months not a one of the general discharges I had part in..not one of those service members deserve any benefits,, that there are federal laws that allows for some benefits is of no mitigating reason in my mind. .. they pay congressmen that refuse to do their jobs.

Im sure there are exceptions and for that the is a remedy.

If the Soldier was truly deserving of a Honorable discharge but got a general, they can appeal for a discharge upgrade..
http://arba.army.pentagon.mil/adrb-overview.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[loren]

Ahh, the real question I'm raising is: what does the Texas law really mean? There is no question about the merits of Honorable vs General discharges - never was. The question is what is actually intended by the Texas law makers when they use the term "honorably discharged" instead of "Honorable Discharge". Think about it. I don't really care about the license fee discount but after 58 years, learning that Texas CHL licensing thinks I was NOT honorably discharged is a little annoying when my DD-214 clearly says: separated under HONORABLE conditions.

[rbwhatever1]

And in 28 years 8 months not a one of the general discharges I had part in..not one of those service members deserve any benefits,, that there are federal laws that allows for some benefits is of no mitigating reason in my mind...

This is exactly the same experience I've had in the FMF. When I was at Parris Island we had a "Failure To Adapt" category for those who were sent home early for disciplinary reasons and was strictly administrative. This category could be used for up to 3 months after one graduated boot camp but I never saw one in the Fleet. Sent a lot of young thugs home early from Parris Island with it. The "General" categories fell in line with non judicial punishment offenders and OTH was tacked on for Court Martial offenders...

[casp625]

Ahh, the real question I'm raising is: what does the Texas law really mean? There is no question about the merits of Honorable vs General discharges - never was. The question is what is actually intended by the Texas law makers when they use the term "honorably discharged" instead of "Honorable Discharge". Think about it. I don't really care about the license fee discount but after 58 years, learning that Texas CHL licensing thinks I was NOT honorably discharged is a little annoying when my DD-214 clearly says: separated under HONORABLE conditions.

Here is a good write-up about the types of discharges, courtesy of The Fort Hood Sentinel:

In general, there are five different types of discharges from the Army: Honorable; General, Under Honorable Conditions; Under Other than Honorable Conditions; Bad Conduct; and Dishonorable. The latter two may only be adjudged as a consequence of either a special or general court-martial conviction pursuant to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Each of these discharges carries a different meaning and can seriously affect veterans’ benefits and employment after service.

Of the five types of discharges, three are available to Soldiers when they are discharged administratively: Honorable, General Under Honorable Conditions, and Under Other than Honorable Conditions.

If you did not receive an Honorable Discharge, then you were not discharge honorably... it was a General with some honorable conditions (read, honorable conditions outweighed the negatives). Now we can dig a little further into the Texas code. According to Texas DPS, you should be able to receive a "Veteran" designation on your driver's license because your DD-214 "must show that the veteran received an honorable discharge or a general discharge (under honorable conditions)."

Now for the CHL portion.
Veteran (Honorably Discharged) is governed under Texas Government Code:

• GC §411.174
• GC §411.1951

Sec. 411.174 APPLICATION:

(9)
(b-1) The application must provide space for the applicant to:
(1) list any military service that may qualify the applicant to receive a license with a veteran's designation under Section 411.179(e); and
(2) include proof required by the department to determine the applicant's eligibility to receive that designation.

Sec. 411.179 FORM OF LICENSE:

(e) In this subsection, "veteran" has the meaning assigned by Section 411.1951. The department shall include the designation "VETERAN" on the face of any original, duplicate, modified, or renewed license under this subchapter or on the reverse side of the license, as determined by the department, if the license is issued to a veteran who:
(1) requests the designation; and
(2) provides proof sufficient to the department of the veteran's military service and honorable discharge.

Sec. 411.1951 WAIVER OR REDUCTION OF FEES FOR MEMBERS OR VETERANS OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES:

(a) In this section, "veteran" means a person who:
(1) has served in:
(A) the army, navy, air force, coast guard, or marine corps of the United States;
(B) the Texas military forces as defined by Section 437.001; or
(C) an auxiliary service of one of those branches of the armed forces; and
(2) has been honorably discharged from the branch of the service in which the person served.

If we look at 411.179 we see it specify "honorable discharge." But wait, if we argue the definition of 411.1951, we once again see "honorably discharged." So now we are trying to redefine the meaning of the word "discharge" because a General (with conditions being honorable) still does not equal an Honorable Discharge. But just to prove the Texas DPS and lawmakers know exactly what they are talking about, let's take a look at Sec. 411.172

Sec. 411.172. ELIGIBILITY:

(g) Notwithstanding Subsection (a)(2), a person who is at least 18 years of age but not yet 21 years of age is eligible for a license to carry a concealed handgun if the person:
(1) is a member or veteran of the United States armed forces, including a member or veteran of the reserves or national guard;
(2) was discharged under honorable conditions, if discharged from the United States armed forces, reserves, or national guard; and
(3) meets the other eligibility requirements of Subsection (a) except for the minimum age required by federal law to purchase a handgun.

Now we can see 2 different sections that directly address "Honorable Discharge" (Sec 411.1951) and "Honorable Conditions" (Sec 411.172). IANAL, but I'd place my best guess that you can get a Veteran designation on your driver's license, would be eligible for a CHL if you were between 18-21 with a General under Honorable Conditions, are not qualified for a reduced fee. If anyone else would look to provide an interpretation, please do.

[C-dub]

I knew many people when I was in the Navy that received discharges other than honorable. Some were simply because they just couldn't manage to stay out of trouble. Nothing major, but they just couldn't. Most were just young and didn't know what to do with all that money and sitting around the barracks most of the time. Or whenever we hit port after being at sea for a while couldn't control themselves. Anyway, sorry to hear about your situation. However, depending on your circumstances you may be able to change your discharge status. I found this. You can apply to have your discharge upgraded.

http://themilitarywallet.com/types-of-m ... ischarges/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How to Upgrade a Military Discharge
In some situations, you may be eligible to apply to have your military discharge upgraded to a higher rating. However, despite, the rumors, there is no automatic upgrade process. You must apply to have your discharge upgraded by downloading DD Form 293 –Application for the Review of Discharge or Dismissal from the Armed Forces of the United States. You must then submit the form to the Discharge Review Board within 15 years of your discharge. If your discharge was more than 15 years ago, you must request a change to your military records. Here is more information about military discharge upgrades. It is a complicated process, and one that is often best done with the help of legal assistance.

[gljjt]

Ahh, the real question I'm raising is: what does the Texas law really mean? There is no question about the merits of Honorable vs General discharges - never was. The question is what is actually intended by the Texas law makers when they use the term "honorably discharged" instead of "Honorable Discharge". Think about it. I don't really care about the license fee discount but after 58 years, learning that Texas CHL licensing thinks I was NOT honorably discharged is a little annoying when my DD-214 clearly says: separated under HONORABLE conditions.

Here is a good write-up about the types of discharges, courtesy of The Fort Hood Sentinel:

In general, there are five different types of discharges from the Army: Honorable; General, Under Honorable Conditions; Under Other than Honorable Conditions; Bad Conduct; and Dishonorable. The latter two may only be adjudged as a consequence of either a special or general court-martial conviction pursuant to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Each of these discharges carries a different meaning and can seriously affect veterans’ benefits and employment after service.

Of the five types of discharges, three are available to Soldiers when they are discharged administratively: Honorable, General Under Honorable Conditions, and Under Other than Honorable Conditions.

If you did not receive an Honorable Discharge, then you were not discharge honorably... it was a General with some honorable conditions (read, honorable conditions outweighed the negatives). Now we can dig a little further into the Texas code. According to Texas DPS, you should be able to receive a "Veteran" designation on your driver's license because your DD-214 "must show that the veteran received an honorable discharge or a general discharge (under honorable conditions)."

Now for the CHL portion.
Veteran (Honorably Discharged) is governed under Texas Government Code:

• GC §411.174
• GC §411.1951

Sec. 411.174 APPLICATION:

(9)
(b-1) The application must provide space for the applicant to:
(1) list any military service that may qualify the applicant to receive a license with a veteran's designation under Section 411.179(e); and
(2) include proof required by the department to determine the applicant's eligibility to receive that designation.

Sec. 411.179 FORM OF LICENSE:

(e) In this subsection, "veteran" has the meaning assigned by Section 411.1951. The department shall include the designation "VETERAN" on the face of any original, duplicate, modified, or renewed license under this subchapter or on the reverse side of the license, as determined by the department, if the license is issued to a veteran who:
(1) requests the designation; and
(2) provides proof sufficient to the department of the veteran's military service and honorable discharge.

Sec. 411.1951 WAIVER OR REDUCTION OF FEES FOR MEMBERS OR VETERANS OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES:

(a) In this section, "veteran" means a person who:
(1) has served in:
(A) the army, navy, air force, coast guard, or marine corps of the United States;
(B) the Texas military forces as defined by Section 437.001; or
(C) an auxiliary service of one of those branches of the armed forces; and
(2) has been honorably discharged from the branch of the service in which the person served.

If we look at 411.179 we see it specify "honorable discharge." But wait, if we argue the definition of 411.1951, we once again see "honorably discharged." So now we are trying to redefine the meaning of the word "discharge" because a General (with conditions being honorable) still does not equal an Honorable Discharge. But just to prove the Texas DPS and lawmakers know exactly what they are talking about, let's take a look at Sec. 411.172

Sec. 411.172. ELIGIBILITY:

(g) Notwithstanding Subsection (a)(2), a person who is at least 18 years of age but not yet 21 years of age is eligible for a license to carry a concealed handgun if the person:
(1) is a member or veteran of the United States armed forces, including a member or veteran of the reserves or national guard;
(2) was discharged under honorable conditions, if discharged from the United States armed forces, reserves, or national guard; and
(3) meets the other eligibility requirements of Subsection (a) except for the minimum age required by federal law to purchase a handgun.

Now we can see 2 different sections that directly address "Honorable Discharge" (Sec 411.1951) and "Honorable Conditions" (Sec 411.172). IANAL, but I'd place my best guess that you can get a Veteran designation on your driver's license, would be eligible for a CHL if you were between 18-21 with a General under Honorable Conditions, are not qualified for a reduced fee. If anyone else would look to provide an interpretation, please do.

Nice analysis. Are they purposefully making a distinction between a general discharge under honorable conditions for those 18-21 and those over 21???

[mojo84]

Seems to me the OP is suffering consequences from his actions long ago. That's just part of life. There are consequences to every decision and action, good or bad.

I don't think the lawmakers were unaware of what they were doing when they used the words they used. It appears they didn't intend for someone who received a less than honorable discharge to receive a discount.

[baldeagle]

Ahh, the real question I'm raising is: what does the Texas law really mean? There is no question about the merits of Honorable vs General discharges - never was. The question is what is actually intended by the Texas law makers when they use the term "honorably discharged" instead of "Honorable Discharge". Think about it. I don't really care about the license fee discount but after 58 years, learning that Texas CHL licensing thinks I was NOT honorably discharged is a little annoying when my DD-214 clearly says: separated under HONORABLE conditions.

Honorably discharged means an Honorable Discharge. You were not honorably discharged. You received a General Discharge under Honorable Conditions. I'm struggling trying to understand why you don't seem to grasp that. No matter how hard you try, you can't turn your General Discharge into an Honorable Discharge, with one exception. You can appeal your discharge with your service branch and ask for it to be changed.

You can also contact DPS and ask for a ruling. Arguing about it here will accomplish nothing.