Training Requirements Questions

[RPBrown]

When I took my class several years ago, it was all inclusive. Used their guns, their ammo and they loaded the mags for you between rounds. My daughter took it at the same place a couple of months ago and it was the same way.

[thetexan]

When I took my class several years ago, it was all inclusive. Used their guns, their ammo and they loaded the mags for you between rounds. My daughter took it at the same place a couple of months ago and it was the same way.

I'm surprised they didn't aim the gun for you while they were at it. Of course that might have been used as a time saving method.

[Glockster]

As to loading...there is no official rule other than you must show a proficiency, or better stated, not display any indication of incompetency at loading or operating your weapon safely. There is no time limit for loading or unloading. The course of fire requirements only specify number of shots fired in a sequence, and the number of those shots fired within a specific time limit. Again, the instructor will be the master of his line and will specify exactly what he requires for his line regarding when and how to load weapons, how he will call the rounds, etc.

tex

I have since emailed several instructors, and have received written replies from two. Both of those claim that it is specifically a requirement for qualifications that students must be able to load the magazine, and that you cannot use a loader as that is prohibited. One went so far as to say that he learned this from DPS as an instructor, and that to not have someone load all the rounds by hand in the magazine would risk him facing possible criminal charges.

[n5wd]

Here is the Course of Fire for qualification for your CHL: https://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/CHL/Licen ... Course.pdf

Your instructor should tell you to load five rounds of ammo at a time, except for stage 1B. Then, it would depend on whether you were using a revolver, or had a gun whose magazine would hold all 10 shots of that sequence. I don't know if you would find an instructor that was OK with you bringing in enough loaded magazines to fire the course of fire, or not. I wouldn't. and since it is a test to see if you can manipulate your gun safely and effectively, I wouldn't let someone else load your gun for you -at least that is what I remember the DPS instructors telling us when I went through the instructor training.

So, I guess you can say that loading your gun is a requirement.

The only timed events are the shot strings. As long as I don't have to take a nap while you reload, I'll wait for you to do so - reloading is not being timed.

But see, this is my question/point in that nowhere does it require that I can see, that you have to demonstrate loading your mag. And loading the mag is clearly different than loading a mag into a gun. So I'd like to ask since you did indicate that you wouldn't be okay with someone bringing pre-loaded mags - what is the basis for that not being okay for you? Isn't that then adding to the written requirements provided by DPS?

I understand what you're asking. In my mind, proficiency in using a firearm includes not just picking it up and pulling the trigger, but also making it ready to fire from a unloaded, stored condition, which is what it will HAVE TO BE to be in my classroom and on MY RANGE. Those are just my rules on my property, and someone else may allow students to come in with loaded pistols, ready to shoot. That's their business, but not the way that I do business.

I want to be assured that the student can take that unloaded and stored pistol, look at it to make sure it's reliable enough to do the job it's supposed to do (I wouldn't let someone use a pistol that had too much head space, for example - that might not only hurt the shooter, but also the person standing next to them), and that they demonstrate proficiency in getting it loaded with proper ammo (and yes, I've seen someone try to load a 9mm pistol with a .45 round.). Like Keith... after the basic proficiency is demonstrated and they're having some physical limitations, I might assist them but only after I know that they can handle the pistol and all of the parts of the pistol that would normally have to be manipulated in order to achieve the desired result (a bullet fired into the target, hitting where it's supposed to be - or close enough to count). It's all a part of showing proficiency with the weapons system (the gun, the ammo, the magazine, if any). In my mind, and in the mind of the instructors who taught us at the DPS school, that's what we're supposed to be certifying when we sign your CHL-100 showing that you're proficient.

[joe817]

I have since emailed several instructors, and have received written replies from two. Both of those claim that it is specifically a requirement for qualifications that students must be able to load the magazine, and that you cannot use a loader as that is prohibited. One went so far as to say that he learned this from DPS as an instructor, and that to not have someone load all the rounds by hand in the magazine would risk him facing possible criminal charges.

Gosh, I'd sure like to see that written somewhere! Not to argue with you, but when I went to the range for the shooting portion of the CHL class, I used a speed loader to load the magazines for my Ruger P95, and no one said one thing to me.

Instructors, can you verify or deny what is in bold above?

[n5wd]

As to loading...there is no official rule other than you must show a proficiency, or better stated, not display any indication of incompetency at loading or operating your weapon safely. There is no time limit for loading or unloading. The course of fire requirements only specify number of shots fired in a sequence, and the number of those shots fired within a specific time limit. Again, the instructor will be the master of his line and will specify exactly what he requires for his line regarding when and how to load weapons, how he will call the rounds, etc.

tex

I have since emailed several instructors, and have received written replies from two. Both of those claim that it is specifically a requirement for qualifications that students must be able to load the magazine, and that you cannot use a loader as that is prohibited. One went so far as to say that he learned this from DPS as an instructor, and that to not have someone load all the rounds by hand in the magazine would risk him facing possible criminal charges.

As far as I know, that's Balderdash! No such rule about loading accessories that I'm aware of, and I went to the same school they supposedly did.

You're right - some folks can come up with some pretty far out "rules".

Edited to add that I was specifically talking about the UpLulu.

[n5wd]

I have since emailed several instructors, and have received written replies from two. Both of those claim that it is specifically a requirement for qualifications that students must be able to load the magazine, and that you cannot use a loader as that is prohibited. One went so far as to say that he learned this from DPS as an instructor, and that to not have someone load all the rounds by hand in the magazine would risk him facing possible criminal charges.

Gosh, I'd sure like to see that written somewhere! Not to argue with you, but when I went to the range for the shooting portion of the CHL class, I used a speed loader to load the magazines for my Ruger P95, and no one said one thing to me.

Instructors, can you verify or deny what is in bold above?

You might want to BOLD the letters and color them different -- it's hard to see the bold doing anything on some monitors (my desktop, included).

Edit: just noticed that the color option isn't there any more when I reply to a message. Wonder why?

See my reply above this one - as far as I know, that "rule" is a figment of someone's imagination.

[thetexan]

As to loading...there is no official rule other than you must show a proficiency, or better stated, not display any indication of incompetency at loading or operating your weapon safely. There is no time limit for loading or unloading. The course of fire requirements only specify number of shots fired in a sequence, and the number of those shots fired within a specific time limit. Again, the instructor will be the master of his line and will specify exactly what he requires for his line regarding when and how to load weapons, how he will call the rounds, etc.

tex

I have since emailed several instructors, and have received written replies from two. Both of those claim that it is specifically a requirement for qualifications that students must be able to load the magazine, and that you cannot use a loader as that is prohibited. One went so far as to say that he learned this from DPS as an instructor, and that to not have someone load all the rounds by hand in the magazine would risk him facing possible criminal charges.

What?????!!!!! WHAT???!!!

I will personally get you the precise DPS requirements.

Standby

[Glockster]

Yeah, I have in front of me a copy of the "Texas Concealed Handgun License Proficiency Demonstration Course of Fire" from the DPS site. And it clearly contains no such requirements. However, the issue remains that just like some instructors have posted here, apparently instructors have decided to add as they wish to those requirements. And I'm not really sure what to do as I'm not so far finding any instructors who are closest to me (I'm North of Houston, almost to Conroe) who aren't saying the same thing (or some version of it as they all seem to be saying one thing or another, but all in addition to what is in the DPS requirements.

This is beginning to sound like a time to have a conversation with DPS as with above it seems to be clear that instructors here are saying that they've been told during their training to do this, or that they can do this, or whatever.

[thetexan]

I will find out on Thursday once and for all.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Yeah, I have in front of me a copy of the "Texas Concealed Handgun License Proficiency Demonstration Course of Fire" from the DPS site. And it clearly contains no such requirements. However, the issue remains that just like some instructors have posted here, apparently instructors have decided to add as they wish to those requirements. And I'm not really sure what to do as I'm not so far finding any instructors who are closest to me (I'm North of Houston, almost to Conroe) who aren't saying the same thing (or some version of it as they all seem to be saying one thing or another, but all in addition to what is in the DPS requirements.

This is beginning to sound like a time to have a conversation with DPS as with above it seems to be clear that instructors here are saying that they've been told during their training to do this, or that they can do this, or whatever.

There are no such requirements by DPS, or in statute. Any instructor that adds his/her own requirements is on very thin ice. We cannot fail a student for failure to meet any standard or requirement that is not either in statute or published DPS regulation. We can have rules that relate to running a safe range, but we cannot create our own performance standards.

Chas.

[thetexan]

I just checked my class notes and curriculum for the chl class.

Charles is absolutely right.

And dps does not teach otherwise in class.

No ammo requirement
No restriction on loaders or preloading
No requirement for clothing
No requirement for two handed
No requirement to not shoot from holster draw
No other of a thousand different oddball restrictions

The requirements are...

50 rounds shot as per the official course of fire
Must be a B27 target
Must score 175 (225 for instructors)
Must be at least .32 cal
Three opportunities to pass class and proficiency

Nothing else may be used to qualify or disqualify a candidate

Don't confuse an instructors requirement for his operation of his line as an addition to the dps requirement.
If he advises you at signup he doesn't allow loaders then go somewhere else. If he doesn't and he fails you for using one then call dps. If he fails you for refusing the instruction of the RO or master of the line then I'll back him for removing you from the line.

The two most powerful men in the universe are a major league plate umpire during a game and the RO and/or master of the firing line.

Tex

[jmra]

"No requirement for clothing"

[Glockster]

And as the conversations have developed about the ammo, I'm being told that the ammo has to be boxed in original boxes - for safety. In doing so that is the only way to ensure that you're not using reloads as they've got rules prohibiting use of reloads on the range. I asked if they inspect everyone's rounds to try to determine if they were reloads, because someone could simply be using old boxes - no answer yet.

The not loading in advance is being justified as necessary to demonstrate proficiency (in knowing how to handle the gun) and for range safety so they can verify the correct number of rounds being loaded.

The sad thing is the number of classes I'm finding in the area whose web pages say the same kind of things.

[n5wd]

Well, Glockster - I'm curious now... How would you get around the command to "Load 5 rounds and make ready to fire!"? With pre-loaded magazines? How many magazines would you be bringing to my range?

And, let's say you have a malfunction on one round in a string of 5 shots, but with plenty of time to drop the magazine, load another round, re-insert the magazine and charge the gun? You just had 5 loaded in that mag... Are you going to just drop the missing shot?

Do you have some reason for not wanting to walk up to the firing line at my ranger with an empty gun and a box of 50 rounds and loading them as instructed to do during the course of fire?

I'd like to think that I would make accomodations for someone with a disability, but so far you haven't said thats what the problem is.

And if you think it's none of my bee's wax, feel free to tell me so! After all, I'm not trying to get you to out yourself if you don't want to answer.