Training Requirements Questions

[Glockster]

And as the conversations have developed about the ammo, I'm being told that the ammo has to be boxed in original boxes - for safety. In doing so that is the only way to ensure that you're not using reloads as they've got rules prohibiting use of reloads on the range. I asked if they inspect everyone's rounds to try to determine if they were reloads, because someone could simply be using old boxes - no answer yet.

The not loading in advance is being justified as necessary to demonstrate proficiency (in knowing how to handle the gun) and for range safety so they can verify the correct number of rounds being loaded.

The sad thing is the number of classes I'm finding in the area whose web pages say the same kind of things.

I could get behind the boxed ammo requirement. DPS has a list of approved ammo. Their range, their rules.
As far as the pre-loaded mags, you wouldn't be allowed to do that on the range where I instruct and assist. If any student has a need for an accommodation regarding loading magazines, they are provided with someone to load the magazines for them. When we have students bring loaded weapons to the line, we make them remove and empty magazines.

And that would be a reasonable accommodation and I'd be delighted to have someone say that it can be done that way. But nobody is saying that and they hold to that seeing ME load them all is part of the proficiency requirement related to handling the gun.

[goose]

Glockster, I hope that you can find somebody willing to work with you. This thread has left me undoubtedly grateful for not having any physical issues to deal with in this regard. I will also say that it is a huge testament to Charles that (as I read it) even other instructors are encouraging you to go to him. If I read that correctly he is able to more safely run a range than most. Good for him, sad for the others. Hopefully I read it wrong.

[Medley86]

In my class the instructor stated that you could only have 50 rounds on the line for the qual shoot, I can understand that so you have accurate scoring, no one can sneak in an extra shot. I actually had 2 mags loaded with 16 rounds each when we got to the range, I was told to unload them, the instructor used the loading 5/4/6 rounds at a time(in my class everyone had semi autos) to ensure all guns were clear after the shot strings. When the mag was empty everyones slide was locked back before reloading. I did bring and use the mag loader that was in the box with my XDM and asked the instructor if I could use my holster to hold the gun while loading instead of laying it on the ground, which he allowed so long as it could be holstered with the slide locked open.

I do know that while most on the forum are used to dealing with firearms and shooting, there was a lady in my group who passed the qual and I'm pretty sure one of her shots was on the top corner of the guy next to me's target(she was next to him, targets about 1 foot apart).

[mikeloc]

And as the conversations have developed about the ammo, I'm being told that the ammo has to be boxed in original boxes - for safety. In doing so that is the only way to ensure that you're not using reloads as they've got rules prohibiting use of reloads on the range. I asked if they inspect everyone's rounds to try to determine if they were reloads, because someone could simply be using old boxes - no answer yet.

The not loading in advance is being justified as necessary to demonstrate proficiency (in knowing how to handle the gun) and for range safety so they can verify the correct number of rounds being loaded.

The sad thing is the number of classes I'm finding in the area whose web pages say the same kind of things.

I could get behind the boxed ammo requirement. DPS has a list of approved ammo. Their range, their rules.
As far as the pre-loaded mags, you wouldn't be allowed to do that on the range where I instruct and assist. If any student has a need for an accommodation regarding loading magazines, they are provided with someone to load the magazines for them. When we have students bring loaded weapons to the line, we make them remove and empty magazines.

And that would be a reasonable accommodation and I'd be delighted to have someone say that it can be done that way. But nobody is saying that and they hold to that seeing ME load them all is part of the proficiency requirement related to handling the gun.

I became a CHL instructor in 1996. I've been to nine CHL instructor renewal classes. Every class where we shot on a DPS range we were required to use SAMMI ammo and no RELOADS. The ammo and the handgun was always inspected before we begin the course of fire. The range officer would tell us when we could load the magazine and how many rounds. If you want to know exactly how DPS conducts the range than take the DPS instructor course and you will not have to take the course from one of us to get you license. And you will not be there on the weekend.

Sincerely,

Mike Lochabay

[Glockster]

And as the conversations have developed about the ammo, I'm being told that the ammo has to be boxed in original boxes - for safety. In doing so that is the only way to ensure that you're not using reloads as they've got rules prohibiting use of reloads on the range. I asked if they inspect everyone's rounds to try to determine if they were reloads, because someone could simply be using old boxes - no answer yet.

The not loading in advance is being justified as necessary to demonstrate proficiency (in knowing how to handle the gun) and for range safety so they can verify the correct number of rounds being loaded.

The sad thing is the number of classes I'm finding in the area whose web pages say the same kind of things.

I could get behind the boxed ammo requirement. DPS has a list of approved ammo. Their range, their rules.
As far as the pre-loaded mags, you wouldn't be allowed to do that on the range where I instruct and assist. If any student has a need for an accommodation regarding loading magazines, they are provided with someone to load the magazines for them. When we have students bring loaded weapons to the line, we make them remove and empty magazines.

And that would be a reasonable accommodation and I'd be delighted to have someone say that it can be done that way. But nobody is saying that and they hold to that seeing ME load them all is part of the proficiency requirement related to handling the gun.

I became a CHL instructor in 1996. I've been to nine CHL instructor renewal classes. Every class where we shot on a DPS range we were required to use SAMMI ammo and no RELOADS. The ammo and the handgun was always inspected before we begin the course of fire. The range officer would tell us when we could load the magazine and how many rounds. If you want to know exactly how DPS conducts the range than take the DPS instructor course and you will not have to take the course from one of us to get you license. And you will not be there on the weekend.

Sincerely,

Mike Lochabay

How DPS conducts the instructor course doesn't really matter to me, frankly. What does matter is what the requirements and the laws are.

[Glockster]

Glockster, I hope that you can find somebody willing to work with you. This thread has left me undoubtedly grateful for not having any physical issues to deal with in this regard. I will also say that it is a huge testament to Charles that (as I read it) even other instructors are encouraging you to go to him. If I read that correctly he is able to more safely run a range than most. Good for him, sad for the others. Hopefully I read it wrong.

Thanks goose! I'm happy to say that I've had success in that regard as I am now registered for a class!

I was finally able to connect with an instructor that I've been hoping to talk to and I had barely gotten into the first part of my explanation of my situation when he stopped me and stated that there is "no requirement by DPS that I have to load my mag" and he said that he would gladly load every mag for me. But wait, it gets better! He then asked for me to continue explaining, and then he asked how many mags I had and when he realized I had enough he said that if that is what I'd like to do, that he'd like me to go ahead and pre-load my mags and label them so we'd know which ones were for which stages, and I could pre-load ALL of my mags and bring them that way. It was a very good conversation, and he seems like a great guy that is going to be an excellent instructor -- and he not only immediately offered a way to accommodate my situation but went the extra distance to allow the best situation for my proficiency portion.

[mikeloc]

How DPS conducts the instructor course doesn't really matter to me, frankly. What does matter is what the requirements and the laws are.[/quote]

The way that DPS conducts their range is the example and directions we as instructors have been given for the pass nineteen years. I'm happy for you that you found an instructor that would work with you.

However for safety if you take my class I will inspect your firearm to make sure its safe and that the ammunition is SAMMI. I would be glad to load your magazines for you, But on the range they would not be loaded for safety reasons until the command to load.

Good luck with course.

[goose]

Glockster, I hope that you can find somebody willing to work with you. This thread has left me undoubtedly grateful for not having any physical issues to deal with in this regard. I will also say that it is a huge testament to Charles that (as I read it) even other instructors are encouraging you to go to him. If I read that correctly he is able to more safely run a range than most. Good for him, sad for the others. Hopefully I read it wrong.

Thanks goose! I'm happy to say that I've had success in that regard as I am now registered for a class!

I was finally able to connect with an instructor that I've been hoping to talk to and I had barely gotten into the first part of my explanation of my situation when he stopped me and stated that there is "no requirement by DPS that I have to load my mag" and he said that he would gladly load every mag for me. But wait, it gets better! He then asked for me to continue explaining, and then he asked how many mags I had and when he realized I had enough he said that if that is what I'd like to do, that he'd like me to go ahead and pre-load my mags and label them so we'd know which ones were for which stages, and I could pre-load ALL of my mags and bring them that way. It was a very good conversation, and he seems like a great guy that is going to be an excellent instructor -- and he not only immediately offered a way to accommodate my situation but went the extra distance to allow the best situation for my proficiency portion.

I keep writing and deleting all of the things in this thread that disappointed me. Short answer is you found an instructor that is both pro 2A and comfortable that they can evaluate a cheater vs a person looking to protect themselves and family. This restores a bit of my faith in people. I think that you found a good one.

[Glockster]

How DPS conducts the instructor course doesn't really matter to me, frankly. What does matter is what the requirements and the laws are.

The way that DPS conducts their range is the example and directions we as instructors have been given for the pass nineteen years. I'm happy for you that you found an instructor that would work with you.

However for safety if you take my class I will inspect your firearm to make sure its safe and that the ammunition is SAMMI. I would be glad to load your magazines for you, But on the range they would not be loaded for safety reasons until the command to load.

Good luck with course.

[/quote]

Mike, my point about the instructor training is that IF what some instructors claim is true, that they have been told during the training that mags cannot be pre-loaded and/or that my loading a mag on the firing line is a requirement, then I don't care as what was told (IF correct) is wrong. And I did get that directly from DPS during a phone call. They have stated that there is no such requirement and that they do not put that out as a requirement during the instructor training. So, what I care about is what DPS says the requirements are, what the law is, and safety.

But my weapon will NOT be loaded on the range either until the command to load is given. My mag will not be going into my gun any earlier or later than anyone else on the firing line. And not until it is in my gun is my gun then loaded.

Thanks for your good wishes!

[mikeloc]

Thanks for your reply Glockster.

We pretty mush agree about the three rules safety, safety, and safety. I've taught thousands of students and I would never let someone on the range until I had inspected their handgun and ammo. I don't know how many times someone has had a gun that was not safe and ammo that did not match the gun example 9mm for 10mm gun 40 S&W for .357 SIG. Therefore we've avoided many accidents that I've heard about at other ranges. In 2009 my wife who is also an instructor took the renewal class at the DPS range. DPS had a state trooper load her handgun. We she went back in 2011 for the renewal class they had her load one magazine and a trooper loaded the rest (She only shot a 247 and 249 but she had cataracts so I guess that was a good excuse). We have plenty of magazines but the range officer wanted everyone loading at the same time I do agree that there is not a requirement for loading (only that you can safely handle the handgun). With one person on the range as long as I or my wife has inspected the ammo I don't have a problem loading nine magazines just before we approach the range. One with ten rounds and eight with five rounds.

When I have a large class with fourteen to twenty students on the line at one time it's handy from my stand point to tell were we are in the course of fire to just look at anyone's open box and see how many rounds they's taken out of the box so that I remember the next string of fire.

I enjoy your post.