What to say after it goes bad

[Jim Beaux]

One of the better suggestions Ive heard is to remember that calls to 911 are recorded. Your adrenaline will be pumping and you will have a tendency to "run your mouth".

So if possible you make the 911 call, but keep the call short....

IE: "There has been a shooting at 123 Main St. Please dispatch a policeman & EMS."

Then hang up. Do not answer the phone when the 911 operator calls back.

If there are witnesses they also will be calling 911 & giving their perception of the events. There is a probability that the witnesses did not see the entire event as it evolved & you may lend credence to what they perceive happened.

No two witness can relate the same incident.

Many years ago a bearded long haired hippie broke up a fight between a man and woman in a parking lot. The guy was beating the woman & when the hero pulled him off, the drunk jumped him. The drunk could barely stand & the hero pushed him down and he couldnt get back up.

The woman then attacked the hero. He tried retreating / disengaging when she landed a kick very close to his groin - he then gave her a short jab in her belly and she settled down.

Most of the witnesses saw what actually happened and defended the hero; but two only saw the part when he knocked the guy down and punch the woman!

[baldeagle]

One of the better suggestions Ive heard is to remember that calls to 911 are recorded. Your adrenaline will be pumping and you will have a tendency to "run your mouth".

So if possible you make the 911 call, but keep the call short....

IE: "There has been a shooting at 123 Main St. Please dispatch a policeman & EMS."

Then hang up. Do not answer the phone when the 911 operator calls back.

The problem with this is that they will know it was your phone that made the call. So, as Masaad points out, you need to establish yourself as the victim. I was attacked. A man has been shot. Please dispatch police and EMS to this location.

[Vol Texan]

• Don't talk...definitely good advice, because we all know that talking too much can go bad.
• Don't talk...may be bad advice, because (and this may be because of watching too much "Law and Order"), as soon as someone "lawyers up", there is the perception that they may be thought to be guilty because they have done so.

Now I'm no lawyer, and it's been over 23 years since I wore a LEO badge (and that was only for a couple of years), but I'm likely to take the middle ground between the two "don't talk" options I've presented above. I think I saw it on a posting by one of the (much wiser, much more senior) members of this forum. The thought was: Make the phone call as brief as you can, but informative enough to let the arriving police know who you are. Then, when the police get there and start asking questions, say something to the order of, "I'm feeling quite ill right now due to the situation, and I'd rather not talk until I calm down a bit".

While this is not quite as definitive as requesting your 5th Amendment protections, it might achieve the desired result without sounding like you're "lawyering up". Sure, you may still yet find yourself in a situation where the questions keep coming (requiring you to affirmatively assert your right to remain silent), it's possible that this first step might just work, and keep inquiring minds from probing too hard, too soon.

Of course, this is all well and good if the general perception is that this was a righteous self-defense act. If the arriving officers fail to come to that understanding quickly, and have arrested you as the assailant, then all bets are off. Skip the pleasantries and then, "No, sir (ma'am), I'd prefer not to talk right now," is quite acceptable if you find yourself in handcuffs.

[Jim Beaux]

One of the better suggestions Ive heard is to remember that calls to 911 are recorded. Your adrenaline will be pumping and you will have a tendency to "run your mouth".

So if possible you make the 911 call, but keep the call short....

IE: "There has been a shooting at 123 Main St. Please dispatch a policeman & EMS."

Then hang up. Do not answer the phone when the 911 operator calls back.

The problem with this is that they will know it was your phone that made the call. So, as Masaad points out, you need to establish yourself as the victim. I was attacked. A man has been shot. Please dispatch police and EMS to this location.

I have a lot of respect for Masaad...but Im sure the police have heard his words repeated dozens of times before. To me it sounds calculating and canned. JMO

As Im not hiding or trying to deceive, it doesnt matter that the police know the call came from my phone. My calling to report and request police and EMS shows I conducted myself in a responsible manner - but there is nothing more that I want recorded by 911. (I assume anything you tell the police will be used against you)

When the police respond I will have had a few more minutes to gather my thoughts and start from there. The last thing I would want to do is alienate the police. I know that the cop will understand where Im coming from and will appreciate my being polite and respectful.

I will preface most of my responses inferring something along the line of: "Ive never been attacked like this before", "This has shaken me up pretty bad, Im in no condition to conduct an intelligent conversation" & "Im sure you understand my need for legal council & I intend to share everything possible once I speak with him.", "I appreciate any consideration you can give".

The vast majority of cops are decent & caring people. With them it's not personal, they do what they have to do & that is to apply the law as the situation leads. I will never get into a spitting contest with him or think I can outsmart him. This isnt his first rodeo.

[MechAg94]

If you look at the original youtube videos on not talking to the police, all their examples of what not to do dealt with people being interrogated and/or interviewed after the fact, mostly at the station. I don't believe they addressed at all the idea of staying silent at the scene of the incident.

The idea to give some basic info on a 911 call and to the responding officers is simply trying to minimize legal grief. If the cop shows up and doesn't recognize the situation as one of self defense and you clam up and won't say anything, he may just assume murder and approach evidence and everything with that angle. He may miss something important to your version of events. Also, an escaping victim might have called 911 and lied about what happened.

Odd are you will end up Not Guilty and free regardless of which route you go especially in Texas. What we want to do is play the best cards you can to avoid going to trial at all.

It is always good to remember that Massad Ayoob's original background is New York and New Jersey as well as various cases around the country. All his advice is based on seeing gun owners run through the legal wringer. Much of it likely won't be a problem by itself, but can cause issues if the evidence backing you up is not so strong.

[casp625]

This is the information I was given:

[RonW956]

If you are being assaulted in a manner where your life is in immediate danger of being taken away then you are a victim of a felony and you have a right to life that no one has a right to take away. A knowledgeable person who uses very good judgement in using deadly force has the law on his side. Once shooting is done & the BG is either down or runs away call 911 & report the crime against you. Render first aid if possible, but if you are injured, take care of yourself first. Remember, you are the victim and you should obviously come across as one. A victim is not afraid to talk to the police.

[jason812]

Get one, any lawyer, before this possibility happens. You can always hire an expert later if you have to go to trial, but you need someone now in your corner to get you through the first 24 hours or so. By the way, you're going to take the ride anyway, even if you have a lawyer. But having a lawyer is the difference between getting out that same day or night, and spending all your time in jail before appearing before the Grand Jury.

Having an attorney is pretty easy. You can become friends with one or hire someone for some small legal support like writing a will. There are services like Prepaid legal that are very affordable and get you legal support for a variety of issues including traffic tickets or arrests. there are specific services like [Pre-paid legal service] who specialize in this type of event. As TAM said, you need someone on your side.

Thanks for the advise. The prepaid route we will probably not do due to the fact that we have made the sacrifice for my wife to raise our child instead of somebody else. Which means money is not coming out our ears. She did work in the same office as a lawyer before she had the baby and I will talk to her and see if we can at least get his number in case of emergency. So I guess the good news is, she knows one at least as an acquaintance.

[Ruark]

I've heard so much contradictory advice on this subject, it's somewhat exasperating. Certainly, a cop will start frowning heavily if you immediately go silent and refuse to say a single word. But of course you shouldn't go jabbering like a typewriter, either.

FIRST: I have been advised many times to ALWAYS ALWAYS call 911 after an encounter, even if you don't draw your gun. By that I mean, in the same motion you re-holster or re-conceal your gun, grab your cell phone and call 911. If you don't, it's very likely that the bad guy will. "hey, there's some guy running around pointing a gun at people, he tried to rob me!!!!!" Remember in the law's mind, the caller is the victim, and you'll be the bad guy face down on the pavement in handcuffs. This is not only to get revenge, but to tie up the cops and take the heat off of him while he sneaks away. Happens all the time. Put 911 on your speed dial!

Immediately after calling 911, call your USCCA number or [pre-paid legal], or whatever you have.

The first questions an officer asks will be just information gathering. A lot of it depends on the attitude of the officer and where you are, and how obviously it's a self defense situation. If the BG is lying on the ground with a gun next to him and there were witnesses, you can talk a little more than if he's unarmed, lying there dead and nobody's around. You can describe exactly what led up to the shooting, then point out that "at that point I had to defend myself." NEVER say "I shot him in self defense," or anything starting with "I shot" or "I had to fire.." because this is just admitting to killing somebody. That may or may not be problematic, again depending on the specifics. Out here where I live, the local LEO would slap you on the back and say "good shot, buddy." In Austin, the DA would be licking his chops at the prospect of frying a CHL holder.

It would really be nice to have some direct input in this conversation from a current, working police officer.

[SA_Steve]

Don't be talking to the police. Can only hurt. Even a friendly LEO interaction has nothing to do with the DA's actions.
I used to watch Colombo on TV. That was one friendly cop.

[Jumping Frog]

You never lose your right to remain silent and can invoke it at any time. Anything you say before that may be used against you in a court of law.

".... At this point I'd like to invoke my right to legal counsel and to remain silent."

This isn't really true since around 2013 when the Supreme Court ruled on the Salinas v. Texas case.

Prosecutors argued that since Salinas was answering some questions – therefore not invoking his right to silence – and since he wasn't under arrest and wasn't compelled to speak, his silence on the incriminating question doesn't get constitutional protection.

Salinas' "Fifth Amendment claim fails because he did not expressly invoke the privilege against self-incrimination in response to the officer's question," Justice Samuel Alito said. "It has long been settled that the privilege `generally is not self-executing' and that a witness who desires its protection `must claim it.'"

I think you were misinterpreting baldeagle's response. He clearly states someone who starts off by talking still possesses the right to invoke his 5th Amendment privileges at any time afterwards. Both of you are in agreement (as am I) that such a right must be explicitly asserted by the person. In fact, baldeagle's statement nails it: "I'd like to invoke my right to legal counsel and to remain silent."

[Jumping Frog]

Masaad Ayoob has some good advice.

{Jumping Frog: Below are my personal notes that I took while watching an episode on "Personal Defense TV" a 7 or 8 years ago, summarizing Massad Ayoob's 5 critical points to remember immediately following a shooting. I believe these are within TOS, because they are my personal notes -- this is not cut and pasted from a copyrighted article.} Anything in blue is my commentary, anything in black is Massad Ayoob.

Before we get into the five points, I always worry that the police are called for a "man with a gun". I am the man with the gun. That is why one of the critical skills that we teach is not just being able to draw quickly without looking at the gun, but being able to keep an eye on the danger zone while holstering one-handed by feel so you can see what is going on around you, and when the officer gets there you are not the threatening figure with the pistol. You are the person in the non-threatening position, say your hands are about shoulder high with palms forward showing you are unarmed.

Call the Police.

When they arrive, "Officer, I am the one who called you, this is the man who attacked me, he may still have a weapon, I do not know if there are any more."

Whoever calls in first gets to be the victim complainant. There is only one other role open in the play, and that's the perpetrator. You want to be the one who makes the telephone call. The perpetrator is laying there in a puddle of blood doing a remarkably convincing imitation of a victim. You by default become the perp if you do not make the call in. The system is keyed on the assumption that whoever made that initial call is the victim.

I think there are five points that really need to be covered here. A lot of folks will say don't say anything until your lawyer gets there. That's too late, there are a lot of things the cops need to know before they can establish in their mind who's the good guy and who's the bad guy. The 5 point checklist I teach is this:

1. Officer, this man attacked me.
2. I will sign the complaint.
3. Evidence is here.
4. The witnesses are there.
5. Officer, you will have my full cooperation in 24 hours after I have spoken with counsel.

If we don't say those things, if we don't point out the evidence, it disappears.

I did one case in Connecticut. The shooting went down on a cold, icy night. The spent brass will literally blow across an icy street from the wind and from passing cars. If you look at it, 9 MM or 45 brass is just the right size to get caught in the treads of people's shoes or in the treads of passing cars. The evidence that he shot at you if you don't point it out to the officers is gone and it is never coming back. The witnesses are over here thinking could this be some drug shooting or vengeful gang-banger. They don't know what's going on. "Do we really want to get involved?" If they leave, the testimony that would have proven you innocent leaves with them.

So basically, to recap:

1. Point out Perpetrator to Police. ("This man attacked me, clearly showing he is the perpetrator, you are the victim).
2. Tell Police you will "Sign the Complaint". ("I will sign the complaint." Cop language that tells them, "He is the victim complainant, the guy on the ground is the subject of the complaint.)
3. Point out the evidence to the police.
4. Point out Witnesses to Police.
5. Will Give Full Cooperation in 24 hours After speaking with Attorney. (From then on, whatever else is said, "Officer, you know how serious this is. You will have my full cooperation in 24 hours after I have spoken with counsel").

At that point, don't offer anything more. That is your name rank and serial number. Basically, the police officer who is there on the scene will be the one whom the court will be looking to, to say, "what do you think?". The court, the prosecutor, and the investigating detectives will follow him. The tone of this whole investigation is going to be set in the seconds and minutes after the shooting has taken place. The four or five minutes after the shooting may determine where you get to live for the next 20 years.

{I especially agree with the common sense notion that you never get a second chance to make a first impression. You must set the tone in the first seconds and minutes of dealing with law enforcement.

Personally, I have weighed the pros and cons of keeping totally silent versus dealing with the five points, above. I look at this way. If I actually become a criminal and start deliberately committing crimes, then I will follow the defense attorney's suggestion to keep my mouth shut.

However, if I am a law abiding citizen who has just encountered a BG perpetrating a felony on me, I will act like an honest citizen and make the complaint per the guidelines above. It seems like a reasonable course to take.}