Seguin Modifies Policy in response to Sign Fines

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ELB
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Seguin Modifies Policy in response to Sign Fines

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Post by ELB »

http://seguingazette.com/alert/article_ ... 3371c.html
The Seguin Gazette requires you to pay a fee or subscribe to see their articles, I doubt many here are that interested.

Some excerpts:

“During the 2015 legislative session, a number of changes were made to the laws governing the carrying of firearms,” the city’s attorney, Andy Quittner, said in a memorandum.

...

“In order to protect both employees and citizens utilizing city hall services, the city council finds that a no firearms policy shall be established,” the adopted policy said.
I have no idea what the policy was prior to this. Just going by the flow of this article, it appear that the city did use some 30.06 signs on various city buildings. I have had no occasion to go to any city office (I live in the unincorporated county) so I've never seen them, except at the Coliseum as noted below.
“Beginning Sept. 1, 2015, the Legislature made it an offense to prohibit, or even providing a notice that prohibits, someone who is licensed to carry a handgun from doing so unless state law actually prohibits carrying a firearm on premises,” Quittner said.

...

He also said the sign currently outside of city hall and the coliseum will have to be replaced before adding how he had already received one complaint.

“We have actually already had a citizen come in last week to complain about the sign on the coliseum because according to him, it shouldn’t be there. He is probably right, but on that one, I am not 100 percent sure yet,” he said. “That’s part of the problem, and the reason there is because we sell alcohol there. You cannot carry a firearm into a place where alcohol is at least 51 percent of their sales.”
I recently saw the sign at the Coliseum, it was a 30.06 sign and it did indeed violate the law (also it was missing the Spanish language part). I didn't have time to stop and take a pic. Was planning to stop by there again, but looks like I don't have to.

On the other hand, it sounds like the city attorney is confused as to what the law actually is concerning 30.06 and 51%. That 30.06 sign would be illegal regardless of any alcohol. Since he is advising on writing a firearms policy seems like he should be a little bit more informed. Maybe I should stop by his office and straighten him out. I'm sure he would appreciate it. ;-)

Also seems to me that any 51% sign would be the responsibility of whoever is renting the coliseum and obtained a license to serve alcohol, not the city. I can't find any indication that the city itself has any alcohol license, and nothing with that street address pops up on the TABC site.
As a notice to the public, the new policy states that a sign with text similar to “Notice: No firearms allowed on premises” will be posted at each door to city hall and at the entrance to the coliseum.

“It is to be understood that in accordance with Texas law this sign does not apply to persons licensed to carry handguns,” the policy said.
Well they got that part right. Apparently putting teeth into the rules for bureaucrats makes the them smarter. I hope the Legislature heeds the lesson.

The city attorney also answered some questions about firearms and city council meetings; he basically told them they could put signs up for any meeting governed by the "Open Meetings Act." He recommended using easels to hold the signs.
“The policy does not change rules pertaining to employees (who, other than licensed peace officers, may not carry a firearm while working),” Quittner said.
Boo.
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Re: Seguin Modifies Policy in response to Sign Fines

#2

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

It's getting quite old reading that government officials are acting like guns have been banned until this legislative session. I guess they don't want to admit that it has been legal all along and that they have been trying to intimidate CHLs with unenforceable signs. So much for honest local officials.

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Re: Seguin Modifies Policy in response to Sign Fines

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Charles L. Cotton wrote:It's getting quite old reading that government officials are acting like guns have been banned until this legislative session. I guess they don't want to admit that it has been legal all along and that they have been trying to intimidate CHLs with unenforceable signs. So much for honest local officials.

Chas.
Oh, I don't think you should attribute it all to malice. There's ignorance and stupidity in play too. :mrgreen: I think most of them really did think they could ban guns however they wanted, and trusted that the city attorney would keep them out of hot water if they were wrong. I'll bet if you gave a pop quiz to city and county attorneys on Texas gun laws, especially the where-you-can/can't part, the results would be miserable.

I remember years ago when my mom was elected treasurer of our small county in Indiana. She had worked there as a temporary/part-time deputy treasurer during their busy season (when tax bills were prepared by hand and typewriter). She saw she could do that job, and probably better.

When mom got elected she actually dug into the Indiana laws and the regulations of the various state agencies and figured out what she was supposed to be doing, versus what her predecessor had told her was "the way." She developed such a good library, with current statutes, regulations, up-to-date corrections and amendments etc, that the inspector from the State Board of Accounts who was supposed to be inspecting Mom's work (and the assessor) often came by to check his copy of the laws and regs against hers to make sure he was up to date. (Remember, this also was long before online references or even computers. It was all hard copy).

This caused all kinds of problems of course. She was constantly in arguments with the county tax assessor next door, who had been in the position forever, was doing the job the same way she had been taught umpteen years ago, and did NOT take kindly to this brand new rookie treasurer pushing law books under her nose! The assessor once told her "those things are no good."

The assessor set the tax amounts according to the rates and the land valuation, and the treasurer created the bills and collected the money. Trouble was, mom could see that the assessor was off base in the way she did things, and mom took her oath to follow the law and serve the people seriously. Mom was a very nice person, people often remarked on it, but she was not pushover, she knew how to stand her ground. I believe the Assessor finally decided to 'retire', which solved a great many problems.
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Re: Seguin Modifies Policy in response to Sign Fines

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"As a notice to the public, the new policy states that a sign with text similar to “Notice: No firearms allowed on premises” will be posted at each door to city hall and at the entrance to the coliseum.

“It is to be understood that in accordance with Texas law this sign does not apply to persons licensed to carry handguns,” the policy said."

Thankfully they clarified that as it was so confusing what with the law already not allowing carry of guns there without a CHL. Good to know that their new policy regurgitates what has been the law. This all seems nothing more than an attempt to shift focus from laws enacted to prevent them from violating the law to one that sounds like them forming their own policy. That's especially useful in making it look like they provide any value-added to the taxpayers.
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Re: Seguin Modifies Policy in response to Sign Fines

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Post by Abraham »

In the article linked, read the following excerpt by Jessica Kuhn: According to Quittner, three changes could directly affect city operations starting with how on Jan. 1, 2016 "any person can open carry as there will no longer be a concealed license and just a licensed carry among other new rules."

I think I understand what she's trying to get across, but it's so poorly written as to be gibberish.

I hope she's not paid to write for the newspaper...
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Re: Seguin Modifies Policy in response to Sign Fines

#6

Post by Glockster »

Looks like they have some other homework to do as well:

Sec. 70-73. - Possession of firearm prohibited in certain places; exceptions.

(a)

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a firearm within the city limits of the City of Seguin at:

(1)

A public park; or

(2)

A public meeting of a governmental body; or

(3)

A political rally, political parade, or official meeting; or

(4)

A nonfirearms-related school, college, or professional athletic event.

(5)

At any place within the city limits where a concealed license holder is permitted to carry a firearm, a person other than a licensed peace officer shall not carry an unconcealed weapon.
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My State Rep Hubert won't tell me his position on HB560. How about yours?
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Re: Seguin Modifies Policy in response to Sign Fines

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Abraham wrote:In the article linked, read the following excerpt by Jessica Kuhn: According to Quittner, three changes could directly affect city operations starting with how on Jan. 1, 2016 "any person can open carry as there will no longer be a concealed license and just a licensed carry among other new rules."

I think I understand what she's trying to get across, but it's so poorly written as to be gibberish.

I hope she's not paid to write for the newspaper...
Yes, it was a pretty scattershot piece of writing. I tried to spare you some of that with the excerpts. ;-)
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Re: Seguin Modifies Policy in response to Sign Fines

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Post by ELB »

Glockster wrote:Looks like they have some other homework to do as well:

Sec. 70-73. - Possession of firearm prohibited in certain places; exceptions.
...
Do you have a link to this online? I'm wondering if this is the old policy that the new one is supposed to replace.
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Re: Seguin Modifies Policy in response to Sign Fines

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Post by Glockster »

ELB wrote:
Glockster wrote:Looks like they have some other homework to do as well:

Sec. 70-73. - Possession of firearm prohibited in certain places; exceptions.
...
Do you have a link to this online? I'm wondering if this is the old policy that the new one is supposed to replace.

Sure, this was it:
https://www.municode.com/library/tx/seg ... _ARTIVFIWE
Dated 8/2/11.
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Re: Seguin Modifies Policy in response to Sign Fines

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Post by ELB »

Glockster wrote:...Sure, this was it:
https://www.municode.com/library/tx/seg ... _ARTIVFIWE
Dated 8/2/11.
Thanks!

Yes, it looks like this is what will be replaced.
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Re: Seguin Modifies Policy in response to Sign Fines

#11

Post by treadlightly »

Curious - how long has firearm law preemption been disallowed? Doesn't that go way back?

My understanding is a city does not have the legal right to pass firearms regulation. They are held to state law, and I think pretty much always have been. Seems like San Antonio would have banned guns along with Boy Scout pocketknives if they had actually had the right to do so - but I'm just guessing.
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Re: Seguin Modifies Policy in response to Sign Fines

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Post by Charles L. Cotton »

treadlightly wrote:Curious - how long has firearm law preemption been disallowed? Doesn't that go way back?

My understanding is a city does not have the legal right to pass firearms regulation. They are held to state law, and I think pretty much always have been. Seems like San Antonio would have banned guns along with Boy Scout pocketknives if they had actually had the right to do so - but I'm just guessing.
There are other statutes that deal with firearm regulation, but the best known preemption statute is in Tex. Local Gov't Code Chp. 229. This code section was passed in 1987, but it has been amended a few times, including the addition of the Sport Shooting Range Protection Act in 2011.

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Re: Seguin Modifies Policy in response to Sign Fines

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Post by Abraham »

If people were prosecuted due to city gun ordinances they had no right to enact, what now?

Most especially if they served time or were fined or had their gun confiscated?
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Re: Seguin Modifies Policy in response to Sign Fines

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Post by ELB »

Abraham wrote:If people were prosecuted due to city gun ordinances they had no right to enact, what now?

Most especially if they served time or were fined or had their gun confiscated?
I haven't checked any records, but I've lived near Seguin for almost 10 years now, and my gut feel is probably no one was prosecuted solely for violating one of the ordinances against carrying a firearm. Maybe as an add-on after having drawn attention to themselves for other stupidness, like robbery or fighting or something. Shooting off a gun within city limits likely got a response, if caught, but I think that's within the power of a city to regulate, not withstanding state preemption. I don't think the sign issues were really pressed. I know for a fact that at least one properly licensed CHL carry concealed past signs posted in violation of state law. :lol: Of course he didn't advertise it either.

In fact, now that I think about it, I remember a few years ago when a public event was held on the courthouse square. Because of some recent gang-related violence (a killing, actually), it was announced in the paper that no weapons would be permitted. A fence was erected and Seguin police officers wanded people as they entered. When I got to the entrance, I told the officer that I had a CHL and a gun to go with it. He smiled, shook my hand, said "Congratulations!" and waved me in without wanding me.
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