Would this sign work for our Church

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lonewolfjustin
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Would this sign work for our Church

#1

Post by lonewolfjustin »

My daughters school has this sign on the front door. I know it's redundant info being on the school. But what I'm wondering is if it's considered a legal sign. Our church wants to put up a 30.07 sign and thought what the school was doing was a clean look. But we don't want to put these up if they aren't legally binding. We allow concealed carry but decided open carry wasn't a good idea for us. So what do y'all think? Ultimately we will be consulting a lawyer about this to make sure, but wanted to bounce the idea around here first. Thanks everyone!

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Re: Would this sign work for our Church

#2

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Your picture is not showing up
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Re: Would this sign work for our Church

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Post by Liberty »

Welcome to the forum, but I don't think that many people in this forum will be willing to help someone post a legal anti gun poster. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe most of us would prefer it if they posted a non enforceable sign than an enforceable one.
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Re: Would this sign work for our Church

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Post by Liberty »

Soccerdad1995 wrote:Your picture is not showing up
Shhhh ...
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Re: Would this sign work for our Church

#5

Post by lonewolfjustin »

https://flic.kr/p/FKtvuS

Sorry, I forgot to post the photo...
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Re: Would this sign work for our Church

#6

Post by Liberty »

I thought you would allow concealed carry ... That is the wrong sign for what you claim you intend to do.
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Re: Would this sign work for our Church

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Post by RoyGBiv »

lonewolfjustin wrote:https://flic.kr/p/FKtvuS

Sorry, I forgot to post the photo...
A 30.06 sign prohibits CONCEALED carry.

If you want to prohibit OPEN carry but allow concealed carry, you need to post a 30.07 sign.
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.!
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Re: Would this sign work for our Church

#8

Post by lonewolfjustin »

Sorry, I didn't express myself well enough. The sign the church wants to put up is a 30.07 posting. I understand the photo shows a 30.06. My question is is that sign, (ie. Font, size, color, transparent background,etc..) legal or not?

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Re: Would this sign work for our Church

#9

Post by lonewolfjustin »

Liberty wrote:Welcome to the forum, but I don't think that many people in this forum will be willing to help someone post a legal anti gun poster. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe most of us would prefer it if they posted a non enforceable sign than an enforceable one.
I hear what you are saying Liberty, I am pro carrying and the church is as well. They just aren't ready for open carry yet. I thought this forum was all things Texas CHL pro and cons and where you could get advice regarding legal issues conserning gun laws. I guess I came to the wrong place, I apologize...
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Re: Would this sign work for our Church

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Post by ScottDLS »

Looks like it is assuming the letters are 1" tall. Some people claim white lettering on glass is not "contrasting" colors, but I think they're pretty visible.

Remember for a 30.07 sign to be valid it should be posted at EVERY ENTRANCE, so feel free to junk up your place of worship with ugly signs... :cool:
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Re: Would this sign work for our Church

#11

Post by oljames3 »

lonewolfjustin wrote:
Liberty wrote:Welcome to the forum, but I don't think that many people in this forum will be willing to help someone post a legal anti gun poster. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe most of us would prefer it if they posted a non enforceable sign than an enforceable one.
I hear what you are saying Liberty, I am pro carrying and the church is as well. They just aren't ready for open carry yet. I thought this forum was all things Texas CHL pro and cons and where you could get advice regarding legal issues conserning gun laws. I guess I came to the wrong place, I apologize...
Welcome to the forum, lonewolfjustin. You came to the right place. Their are some fine points to consider when discussing signs that are intended to restrict the carrying of handguns. First, the terms "legal" and "illegal" to not apply to what are commonly referred to as 30.06 and 30.07 signs. Rather, the terms "enforceable" and "compliant" are more descriptive. What I think you are asking about is called "effective notice". See the Texas Penal Code (TPC) for the signage requirements: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.30.htm

Please understand that signs do not keep the bad guys out. Signs only work for law abiding Texans. Further, these signs create a situation in which a person commits a crime if the person mistakenly walks past them. My church, First Baptist of Elgin, Texas, does not post signs. Instead, we display notices that handguns should be concealed in the sanctuary. Authorized and identified persons will inform anyone entering the sanctuary with an openly carried handgun to conceal or leave. That way we do not unintentionally make criminals of folks.

As has been mentioned, the sign to restrict license holders from carrying openly must comply with TPC section 30.07. This section requires that the signs be posted at every enterance.
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Re: Would this sign work for our Church

#12

Post by lonewolfjustin »

oljames3 wrote:
lonewolfjustin wrote:
Liberty wrote:Welcome to the forum, but I don't think that many people in this forum will be willing to help someone post a legal anti gun poster. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe most of us would prefer it if they posted a non enforceable sign than an enforceable one.
I hear what you are saying Liberty, I am pro carrying and the church is as well. They just aren't ready for open carry yet. I thought this forum was all things Texas CHL pro and cons and where you could get advice regarding legal issues conserning gun laws. I guess I came to the wrong place, I apologize...
Welcome to the forum, lonewolfjustin. You came to the right place. Their are some fine points to consider when discussing signs that are intended to restrict the carrying of handguns. First, the terms "legal" and "illegal" to not apply to what are commonly referred to as 30.06 and 30.07 signs. Rather, the terms "enforceable" and "compliant" are more descriptive. What I think you are asking about is called "effective notice". See the Texas Penal Code (TPC) for the signage requirements: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.30.htm

Please understand that signs do not keep the bad guys out. Signs only work for law abiding Texans. Further, these signs create a situation in which a person commits a crime if the person mistakenly walks past them. My church, First Baptist of Elgin, Texas, does not post signs. Instead, we display notices that handguns should be concealed in the sanctuary. Authorized and identified persons will inform anyone entering the sanctuary with an openly carried handgun to conceal or leave. That way we do not unintentionally make criminals of folks.

As has been mentioned, the sign to restrict license holders from carrying openly must comply with TPC section 30.07. This section requires that the signs be posted at every enterance.
Those are some great points oljames3! I really like how yall are handling the situation, I will definetly bring that up in our next meeting. We have several people that carry concealed at all times for security measures we just have several "voting" people believe that the church isn't ready for open carry. We currently have 30.07 signs up but they are big white signs screwed to the brick, very ugly. I saw these signs on the school door and they are much more unobtrustive that what we are currently using. So until we are able to win everyone over on not having signs at all, I want to see if we can use these signs instead. But I will seriously repeat what you said above and see if that will work for us. Thanks!

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Re: Would this sign work for our Church

#13

Post by Wag2323 »

Like oljames3 is saying some places just have non 30.07 sign politely asking that no one open carry. Which can be much smaller than a 30.07 and look cleaner.

By posting a polite sign you are asking someone not to open carry and implying that your going to give them effective notice verbally if they do open carry. If someone misses this sign they are not then committing a crime unknowingly and you can then ask them to cover it up when you see them. I would hope any decent person with a LTC will cover up before you ever have to verbally address them so this method would do what you intend.

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Re: Would this sign work for our Church

#14

Post by Soccerdad1995 »

lonewolfjustin wrote:
oljames3 wrote:
lonewolfjustin wrote:
Liberty wrote:Welcome to the forum, but I don't think that many people in this forum will be willing to help someone post a legal anti gun poster. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe most of us would prefer it if they posted a non enforceable sign than an enforceable one.
I hear what you are saying Liberty, I am pro carrying and the church is as well. They just aren't ready for open carry yet. I thought this forum was all things Texas CHL pro and cons and where you could get advice regarding legal issues conserning gun laws. I guess I came to the wrong place, I apologize...
Welcome to the forum, lonewolfjustin. You came to the right place. Their are some fine points to consider when discussing signs that are intended to restrict the carrying of handguns. First, the terms "legal" and "illegal" to not apply to what are commonly referred to as 30.06 and 30.07 signs. Rather, the terms "enforceable" and "compliant" are more descriptive. What I think you are asking about is called "effective notice". See the Texas Penal Code (TPC) for the signage requirements: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.30.htm

Please understand that signs do not keep the bad guys out. Signs only work for law abiding Texans. Further, these signs create a situation in which a person commits a crime if the person mistakenly walks past them. My church, First Baptist of Elgin, Texas, does not post signs. Instead, we display notices that handguns should be concealed in the sanctuary. Authorized and identified persons will inform anyone entering the sanctuary with an openly carried handgun to conceal or leave. That way we do not unintentionally make criminals of folks.

As has been mentioned, the sign to restrict license holders from carrying openly must comply with TPC section 30.07. This section requires that the signs be posted at every enterance.
Those are some great points oljames3! I really like how yall are handling the situation, I will definetly bring that up in our next meeting. We have several people that carry concealed at all times for security measures we just have several "voting" people believe that the church isn't ready for open carry. We currently have 30.07 signs up but they are big white signs screwed to the brick, very ugly. I saw these signs on the school door and they are much more unobtrustive that what we are currently using. So until we are able to win everyone over on not having signs at all, I want to see if we can use these signs instead. But I will seriously repeat what you said above and see if that will work for us. Thanks!
I'd second the idea for a small sign saying something simple like "No openly carried firearms allowed". Followed by a plan to ask anyone openly carrying to please conceal (or leave). It really comes down to what you are trying to accomplish. Do you just want to keep people from openly carrying in the church, or do you want to be able to have people arrested, with no warning, if they miss the signs? I'd have to guess that it is the former since the latter would be extremely disruptive, to say the least. Imagine a couple police cars parked at the front door with lights going and LEO's walking into the sanctuary to pull the offender out of the service, along with a person of authority for the church.

Bottom line, if your plan is to talk to anyone before calling the police, then you don't need a big ugly sign. Unlike concealed carry, you can easily identify anyone who is openly carrying.

And to counter some potential misinformation that you may have heard, you don't need a "compliant" 30.07 sign, or even any sign at all, to prohibit Open Carry (OC). You can just tell people not to OC when you see them.
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Re: Would this sign work for our Church

#15

Post by Excaliber »

lonewolfjustin wrote:
oljames3 wrote:
lonewolfjustin wrote:
Liberty wrote:Welcome to the forum, but I don't think that many people in this forum will be willing to help someone post a legal anti gun poster. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe most of us would prefer it if they posted a non enforceable sign than an enforceable one.
I hear what you are saying Liberty, I am pro carrying and the church is as well. They just aren't ready for open carry yet. I thought this forum was all things Texas CHL pro and cons and where you could get advice regarding legal issues conserning gun laws. I guess I came to the wrong place, I apologize...
Welcome to the forum, lonewolfjustin. You came to the right place. Their are some fine points to consider when discussing signs that are intended to restrict the carrying of handguns. First, the terms "legal" and "illegal" to not apply to what are commonly referred to as 30.06 and 30.07 signs. Rather, the terms "enforceable" and "compliant" are more descriptive. What I think you are asking about is called "effective notice". See the Texas Penal Code (TPC) for the signage requirements: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.30.htm

Please understand that signs do not keep the bad guys out. Signs only work for law abiding Texans. Further, these signs create a situation in which a person commits a crime if the person mistakenly walks past them. My church, First Baptist of Elgin, Texas, does not post signs. Instead, we display notices that handguns should be concealed in the sanctuary. Authorized and identified persons will inform anyone entering the sanctuary with an openly carried handgun to conceal or leave. That way we do not unintentionally make criminals of folks.

As has been mentioned, the sign to restrict license holders from carrying openly must comply with TPC section 30.07. This section requires that the signs be posted at every enterance.
Those are some great points oljames3! I really like how yall are handling the situation, I will definetly bring that up in our next meeting. We have several people that carry concealed at all times for security measures we just have several "voting" people believe that the church isn't ready for open carry. We currently have 30.07 signs up but they are big white signs screwed to the brick, very ugly. I saw these signs on the school door and they are much more unobtrustive that what we are currently using. So until we are able to win everyone over on not having signs at all, I want to see if we can use these signs instead. But I will seriously repeat what you said above and see if that will work for us. Thanks!
I have done professional security consulting work for some quite large churches in Texas. Just before the law became effective, there was a lot of concern over both open and concealed carry as a result of the sometimes hysterical news coverage about the change in the law and a lack of familiarity with the LTC community by many church leaders. When I was asked to provide professional advice, here's what I told them in a nutshell:

1. Have you had any issues with persons carrying concealed handguns in the past? If not, and you can be certain that dozens are lawfully doing so for their own and your protection during every large service, don't worry about it - it's not a problem so it doesn't need a solution.

2. Banning concealed carry would be counterproductive because churches are attractive to a certain subset of these attackers and a ban on concealed firearms is one of the major criteria active shooters look for when selecting attack venues.

3. Open carry will be rarely practiced in urban and suburban areas because the reasons for carrying in the first place are better served by carrying concealed. However, an openly carried handgun in church would make some uncomfortable and would likely be a distraction during a service. Unless and until it becomes more widely accepted, it would therefore be an undesirable practice in these locales. However, it will be extremely rare for someone to show up at a church located in a large city while open carrying. The best way to handle this is similar to how someone with inappropriate attire (e.g. no shirt / no shoes). This is to train the greeters to be observant and advise anyone who shows up while open carrying to conceal or leave the premises, and to present the individual with a card printed with the notice. Both the verbal and printed notice are just as legally enforceable as a 30.07 sign, and the rarity of the issue makes posting ugly and unwelcoming signage unnecessary.

The simple fact is that there has been much ado about what is virtually a non problem. To my knowledge, the notice has never needed to be given because no one has thought it was a good idea to show up while open carrying at these churches.

The situation may be different in more rural churches, and if the congregation is accepting of open carry, it may not be an issue at all, but so far I have only been asked to address the topic from the perspective of urban and suburban churches. I hope this helps put the issue in some perspective.
Excaliber

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I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.
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