Worst LTC Student?

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zmcgooga
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Worst LTC Student?

Postby zmcgooga » Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:53 am

I took my LTC class back in July and just thought to post this and see what other peoples experience have been. There were six of us in the class and during the classroom portion everyone seemed to have a decent understanding of firearms just by the interactions in class. Then comes the range portion...... One note on the form to sign up for the class it says DO NOT SIGN UP FOR THIS LTC CLASS UNLESS YOU HAVE A PROFICIENCY WITH HANDLING FIREARMS

We get to the range and the instructors set us up to do two rounds of 5 shots to warm up. Well 5/6 of us get loaded and ready and our now deemed "special" student is directly to my left. "Special" student starts to have an issue getting a round chambered and turns to point the barrel directly to the left (read at me) while their finger is on the trigger to inspect the chamber. I all but dive out of the way while yelling HEY! and at that time one of the instructors comes over and grabs the gun. As the inspect the gun the realize "special" has fully loaded their magazine with all the rounds backwards.... thus causing the failure to feed. After a discussion with the instructor I guess they write the action of as nerves or whatever because they allow "special" to continue. Well we get to fire our 10 warm up rounds from 3 yards and I look over and special didn't put one round on the target.

We start the actual test part and during it "special" again loads the magazine with rounds backwards, has countless time the instructors have to grab the gun and keep it pointed down range and continue to have to remind them to keep their finger off the trigger. By the end of the testing "special" has maybe 10/50 rounds scattered on the target. As the instructors are handing out the paperwork I see a second instructor setting "special" up to test again, and the whole time I'm thinking HOW have they not kicked this person out of class??

I'm not sure if "special" passed as I left right after getting my paperwork but I pray that they didn't. Just wondering if this is kind of a common issue for classes or it was just a rare occurrence.


jadoti
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Re: Worst LTC Student?

Postby jadoti » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:10 am

Proficiency is one thing, but how was he not ejected after the first warning of waving his gun around? That's insane.


cmgee67
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Re: Worst LTC Student?

Postby cmgee67 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:14 am

When I took mine I had about 10 or 11 in there and the same thing you described. I felt everybody was some what competent and wouldn't have an issue. We go to the range portion and this lady was shooting a sub compact 45. (Unsure of make and model). This range is an indoor range and the targets started off close then got out a little further. When they got out to about 7-10 yards I hard the loudest PANNNNGGGGGG I have ever heard and I realized the lady had shot the steel I-beam in front of her. And she passed.... She maybe had 15 holes on her target and was all over the place. It scares me with the people they let through and pass. Some should never handle a firearm unless they are properly taught. In her case I think that was one of those hey I need a gun to take the class and her husband says here's my small gun.....
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Flightmare
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Re: Worst LTC Student?

Postby Flightmare » Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:33 am

When I took my class back in January, there was a guy that not only loaded his magazine backwards, but actually managed to get a round chambered that way. The RSO said he would likely need to take it to a smith to get it knocked out. The guy was able to safely remove the round and complete his test. No clue on whether or not he passed.
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Lynyrd
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Re: Worst LTC Student?

Postby Lynyrd » Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:40 am

It wasn't my class, but way back when my instructor told a story of a lady who had a hot brass casing land down the neck of her shirt and lodge in her bra. According to him, she started hollering and jumping around and painted darn near everybody there with a live hot gun before he could get the gun out of her hand. At which time he immediately told her she had to leave.
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Re: Worst LTC Student?

Postby bblhd672 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:43 am

Thus why many LTC Instructors are now wearing body armor during the range testing.
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jb2012
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Re: Worst LTC Student?

Postby jb2012 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:47 am

I had the same issue in my class. I don't recall having any guns pointed at me, but there was one guy that had no idea how to load his gun...that passed. Same guy would fire off an entire magazine every time the instructor gave orders for ONE round. He did this every freaking time!! Are people that dumb, or do they just have zero listening skills?


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zmcgooga
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Re: Worst LTC Student?

Postby zmcgooga » Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:55 am

I'm all for everyone getting their LTC but shouldn't at some point an instructor have some liability that they may be licensing a person that could do more harm than good? If a student can only put 10-15 shots on target in a controlled environment what do you think they will do in a stressful situation with people standing around?

I've read other post on the forum about how some think that the class is to hard or easy and both have valid points and I'm not trying to say that these "special" students do not have a right to carry a gun. I just think that maybe there should be a prerequisite class of basic firearm safety, that stresses the safety and proper handling of a firearm.

I may be in the minority but just looking back on the whole situation kind of causes an uneasiness of what skill level is allowed to carry.

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Ryan
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Re: Worst LTC Student?

Postby Ryan » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:21 pm

zmcgooga wrote:I'm all for everyone getting their LTC but shouldn't at some point an instructor have some liability that they may be licensing a person that could do more harm than good? If a student can only put 10-15 shots on target in a controlled environment what do you think they will do in a stressful situation with people standing around?

I've read other post on the forum about how some think that the class is to hard or easy and both have valid points and I'm not trying to say that these "special" students do not have a right to carry a gun. I just think that maybe there should be a prerequisite class of basic firearm safety, that stresses the safety and proper handling of a firearm.

I may be in the minority but just looking back on the whole situation kind of causes an uneasiness of what skill level is allowed to carry.


If you're in the minority, then so am I. While I love that people have the right to carry a firearm, I think that if you don't know basic handgun knowledge before you get into the class, you should be dismissed. If you do things like load the magazine backwards, point the weapon at others, etc... you immediately fail. Guns are dangerous enough without licensing people who have absolutely no idea how to make one function, and do so safely. The LTC class is not a basic handgun class. It isn't designed to teach you "how" to operate the firearm. It's to show proficiency... which means you should already know how to make it function. I'm sorry, but if I was an instructor and you loaded the magazine backwards, you would immediately fail the course. You have clearly shown you are not ready to carry around a weapon.


jb2012
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Re: Worst LTC Student?

Postby jb2012 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:26 pm

Ryan wrote: I'm sorry, but if I was an instructor and you loaded the magazine backwards, you would immediately fail the course. You have clearly shown you are not ready to carry around a weapon.


This x725194 throw me into the minority too

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Re: Worst LTC Student?

Postby Liberty » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:52 pm

zmcgooga wrote: I just think that maybe there should be a prerequisite class of basic firearm safety, that stresses the safety and proper handling of a firearm.

I disagree .. We don't need more red tape. Lots of us know how to shoot, and do so safely before we ever took a formal course. I had was hunting as a 15 year old, shot recreationaly, and served in the army long before I applied for my CHL. Although I have taken a few gun courses and safety courses since receiving my CHL. My point is that the courses can help those who are unfamiliar with guns, there are many of us have achieved proficiency and learned safety with out a formal certifiable course.
I think the problem we are seeing mostly here lies with the instructors. Many are running classes that are way too big. The instructors mentioned here with the "special" students are being extremely negligent in letting these students continue, and fraudulent for letting students pass with only 15 hits on the target. Most instructors have a prerequisite. of a Basic Safety course. but they will bypass this requirement if the potential student has explained their proficiency and and experiance. I think it used to be that most of the older old school instructors became instructors because they believed in the CHL program, and wanted to make it work. It seems to me that a lot of the newer instructors are into it because its a living and not as highly motivated about the program itself.
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Re: Worst LTC Student?

Postby Jago668 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:04 pm

Personally I think it should be the X circle is 5 points, drop 1 point per ring out of that. So the 10 ring would be 4, the 9 ring a 3, the 8 ring a 2, the 7 ring 1. On the paint would be 0, on paper off paint would be -5, and off target would be -10. Keep the same course of fire, and same score to pass. If you can't pass on a well lit range, shooting at known distances, while standing still, and a stationary target. You shouldn't be carrying out where you can so easily hit innocent people.

I would like to see competency beyond the hear thunder, see lightning level.
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Re: Worst LTC Student?

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:09 pm

I would be fine with an enhanced proficiency requirement (including safety) if I could trust the government to not use it in the future as a slippery slope toward limiting LTC issuance.
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rexmitchell
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Re: Worst LTC Student?

Postby rexmitchell » Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:16 pm

No different than renting guns for the LTC class. There was at least 4 people who didn't own a handgun and were taking the test. While I appreciate that if someone wants to rent a gun before they buy, they are able to but it was clear that these people had little experience handling a firearm and all passed. I specifically set myself up at the beginning of the firing line so that I could view everyone shooting on the other side of me. That way I could at least move if someone was pointing a gun in the wrong direction.


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Re: Worst LTC Student?

Postby twomillenium » Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:18 pm

I have disqualified students in the proficiency portion, but they get 3 attempts to pass. I use the word "disqualified" for the 1st attempt. I then tell them they need to take a basic class covering safety and handling of handguns. They may take the one I give (for an additional charge) or go elsewhere. If they go elsewhere, they will need to set an appointment to shoot their 2nd attempt and any unsafe action will result in a disqualification and not a warning. Most take my basic class and I have never had anyone not successfully pass the second attempt. NO ONE has ever passed without scoring enough points! The instructors that allow this, should have their certification revoked. I advise all students, when they receive their LTC, not to carry until they practice more and feel completely comfortable handling their gun safely, because they owe that to the people they will be around when they carry. Unfortunately, some students lie and say they can shoot and they never have shot a pistol before. Then some acknowledge their novice and they shoot very well.

P.S. I do wear a Kevlar vest when more than 2 students shoot at a time. That is required by DOW. (Demand of Wife)
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