Worst LTC Student?

[ajamacus]

Hi everybody,
I am an instructor in the Dallas area, teaching a few years. And I totally agree with having basic pistol instruction before taking my class. And if and when they passed the course, if I'm not comfortable with their skill level, I schedule a 3 hour session (and charge them) before I give them their certificate. It's only the right thing to do, in my opinion.

Someone had mentioned in a previous post about inserting the magazine in backwards, then having a round in the chamber in reverse. Either I'm dumb, but that is literally impossible to do. I can understand trying to put the magazine in backwards (which I've never seen successfully done--ever!), but a round in the chamber? It ain't happening.

Welcome to the forum, if you are the instructor then you should know that you can not require extra instruction for a student who has passed the course. The state sets the standards and if they (the student) have been allowed to take your course and they passed the tests. Then you (the state certified instructor) can not add extra instruction in order for them (the student/s)to get the certificate of completion they have already earned. Of course, if you are the state certified instructor, you already know this.

And get with a moderator to change your screen name since you are not suppose to use your/a company name for your screen name.
Read the forum rules for a more enjoyable and fun time here, they are not hard to follow.

Again welcome to the forum.

Dear twomilienium,

Let me say a big "Thank you" to you and Chas for your constructive reply! I would like to clarify my post, because I was probably writing too quickly, being I had been without much sleep the last 24 hours. I just want to make sure I didn't misspeak and/or apologize if I did. (My post does sound a bit cocky).

1. I don't withhold their LTC certificate until they take my Basic Class. If they pass the Classroom portion, but not the Proficiency (after 3 attempts), I give them their Certificate, just without the bottom portion signed (obviously). Then I encourage (not require) them to take Basic from anyone qualified to teach and help them, and then to practice. They know I'm available to help. I have taught Basic Pistol to several students and didn't require payment from them, because they didn't have the funds and I just wanted to help them get better (I probably do this to a fault, but it's just the way I am. I love helping people).

2. Yes, I'm getting with Chas to change screen name. Thank you for suggesting. Being a Freshman in this forum, I want to always play by the rules and ettiquette.

3. Regarding the loading backwards in a firearm, I just haven't seen it. If it has happened, please educate me. I do, however, see how the casing could get jammed if forced.

Anyway, thanks to the rest of you CHL/LTC friends for your suggestions and feedback. You all provide a wealth of info and ideas, and I'm grateful!

Happy Labor Day to you!
CCT (Al)

[jmorris]

......

Let me say a big "Thank you" to you and Chas for your constructive reply! I would like to clarify my post, because I was probably writing too quickly, being I had been without much sleep the last 24 hours. I just want to make sure I didn't misspeak and/or apologize if I did. (My post does sound a bit cocky).

1. I don't withhold their LTC certificate until they take my Basic Class. If they pass the Classroom portion, but not the Proficiency (after 3 attempts), I give them their Certificate, just without the bottom portion signed (obviously). Then I encourage (not require) them to take Basic from anyone qualified to teach and help them, and then to practice. They know I'm available to help. I have taught Basic Pistol to several students and didn't require payment from them, because they didn't have the funds and I just wanted to help them get better (I probably do this to a fault, but it's just the way I am. I love helping people).

....
CCT (Al)

Ok, I understood that they'd passed. After having failed the second I offer three choices. First, continue on and if they fail they'll have to redo the class.* Second, stop, take a basic class, come back and shoot their third attempt. Third, I'll let them know when I'm going to the range and they can join me for some informal training. Or do it with a buddy.

*Far as I can figure that's the requirement.

[Skiprr]

In 2005, I was in a class conducted by a primary instructor whom I knew and had shot with before. Class of 16; two squads of eight rotating on the line, with two instructors overseeing.

This was a Saturday classroom-first, range-second course, with a break for lunch and about a five-mile drive to the range in between. At lunch, I sat next to a gentlemen who seemed to be the oldest in the class, and who wore a VFW cap; his wife was with him, but driving, not taking the course.

I nodded toward his cap, thanked him for his service, and asked him what branch. It was Navy; he had enlisted almost as soon as he turned 17 and served in the Pacific during WWII. I didn't actually ask his age (I figured 80 or just under), or prod about any details of his service. But we had a great chat, and he and his wife were both friendly and engaging folks. I did notice, however, a distinct tremor in his hands and arms...obvious when relaxed, much more so when he used them. We ate at a Subway, so sandwich and and a drink with a straw in it; don't know what kind of difficulty he'd have had with a fork or spoon.

He shot in the same squad as I did that day, but not near me on the line, so I didn't actually see him shoot. Range time done, scores checked, paperwork signed, goodbyes said, we all grabbed our bags and headed to the parking lot...all except the Navy veteran.

I went back to the range the next day and saw the CHL instructor, asked him about the day before. He said it fairly broke his heart. The Navy vet had Parkinson's, and the more fine motor control he tried to exert, the greater the degree of tremor.

The instructor said the vet had owned guns all of his adult life, had shot skeet and clays in competition decades ago, and was very knowledgeable and safe with the handling of his pistol. He was also very aware of what I refer to as "minute-of-wobble," that bit of sight movement common to everyone who has functioning respiration and circulatory systems.

He'd scored badly on the first run, and the instructor kept him back to try again. He said before he had the vet shoot the CoF again, he worked with him a bit on his shooting in general. That's when he learned of the Parkinson's, and he said there really wasn't much to correct regarding grip, stance, site-picture, etc. Two factors were in play: the neurological tremors themselves, and the fact, even though the vet wasn't gripping the gun too tightly from the perspective of someone healthy, his disease meant that to exert enough pressure to keep the gun under control after a shot, the subjective feeling was that he was gripping it with all his might...which naturally magnified the wobble.

They tried the CoF again, and again he failed. The instructor said he then took a different tack. He positioned the vet at seven yards and told him there was absolutely no timer; in fact, the instructor was going to walk to the rear and straighten up after the class, make sure all the ammo boxes and such were in the trash cans. He told the vet to fire three rounds at his own pace, and he'd be back in five minutes or so ('course, he was still watching the shooting very closely from a few yards back). The rounds were spaced a long time apart.

After three shots, the instructor came back to the line, checked clear, and saw three well-placed center-mass holes in the target.

What he determined was that the vet, when the sights were first brought on target, had huge arcs of motion going on. After some concentration, he was able to shrink and slow the arcs a bit but, more importantly, got their timing down so he could squeeze the trigger as they intersected the point of aim. Even with the age and Parkinson's the man could still shoot...he just couldn't do it quickly.

For the third attempt, the instructor told me he wasn't certain if he had gray-lined the standards or not, but he told the vet to, before each string, take as long as he needed to get settled in on the sight picture, and just say "Now" when he was ready. Then the instructor would gently say "Fire" and the timer would start. Almost worked.

The first rounds at all distances (except I think one at 15 yards) were decent hits,--a few in the "X"--as well as some subsequent shots at three yards. Some second shots a seven-yards scored well. The final results, though, still came in well below the 175 minimum.

The instructor offered to have him come back and take the course again at no charge, and the range portion would be private, one-on-one. He was sure he could get this. The old Navy vet thanked him, shook his hand; told him he appreciated the offer, but that it just wasn't meant to be.

[WTR]

What he determined was that the vet, when the sights were first brought on target, had huge arcs of motion going on. After some concentration, he was able to shrink and slow the arcs a bit but, more importantly, got their timing down so he could squeeze the trigger as they intersected the point of aim. Even with the age and Parkinson's the man could still shoot...he just couldn't do it quickly

I was taught to shoot a pistol at age 12 by the range Officer at the local Police Academy while my Dad was teaching at the academy every Saturday. One day a detective who was probably 50 but looked 70 came to the line with a cigarette dangling from his lips and a mixed drink in his hand. This was in 1970 .....wouldn't happen today. The detective's hand shook like a leaf and he did nothing but cut the 10 ring out of the target at 25 yards ( while holding his drink in one hand and dangling a cig. from his lips). He saw a wide eyed boy looking at him and told me " it doesn't matter where the sights are when you pull the trigger, it matters where the sights will be when you pull the trigger.

[twomillenium]

My class was full of people who'd obviously never loaded of fired a handgun. Why would someone want to gain their license to carry if they weren't into shooting and handling handguns already? I certainly wouldn't have taken my driving test if I hadn't practiced driving. Maybe a range punch card should be required to prove that the student has some range time under their belt.

Why would someone be "required" to practice at a public range? They can pass or they can't.
I guess we should "require" someone to teach them to drive, too.

Yes, I believe someone should be taught to drive before taking their driving test. Individuals should be required to have been taught minimal range safety and proficiency before endangering others in their LTC training. An experienced buddy and range time is an excellent way to learn which direction to insert a magazine and how not to stick your finger in the trigger guard.

I've never taught an LTC class, but it certainly doesn't seem practical for an instructor to individually teach several students who've never touch a handgun how to load a handgun and operate it safely.

When your want to "require" someone to show proof of a "range card" punch that is asking too much. What about the shooter that has his own range or area to shoot? By the way, that is what the proficiency test is all about. An instructor can stop a student for unsafe practices even when the shooter is hitting the X everytime. Any instructor worth their salt would not allow a student to continue to handle a gun unsafely. I have had several (not a high percentage) students that had to be pulled aside and not allowed to continue until they could show safe firearm handling. Even then, I did not require them to get a "punch card" or show a third party endorsement (which is what a "punch card would be) of their skills. That is what the proficiency test is for, they can be DQ'd for more than low score and if that happens 3 times, they have to do a retake. I have never had one do that, but that was how it was instructed to the instructors at class by the DPS.

[johncanfield]

My CHL (as called at that time ) class was about six years ago and taught by Larry Arnold. We had two younger ladies in the class that according to them had never shot a handgun, they both had stellar shooting scores, one of them with a rental gun Larry had available. I was amazed.

Dear wife and I shot hundreds of rounds through our Ruger SR-40 before we took the class. Zero shooting drama with either of us (and she loves to shoot to this day!)

[EdnaBambrick]

That is required by DOW. (Demand of Wife)

D.O.W. The toughest of all tests. Sigh....