Examples of workplace violence by CHL?

[Waco1959]

I was in a training event at my place of employment last week and our Risk Management folks were doing part of the training. At one point concealed carry at work was mentioned and the reason we can't amounted to "if they have to go to their car to get a gun they will most likely cool off and not shoot someone." Since I thought this was pretty flimsy, I started searching online to find examples of this, mostly concentrating on Texas. Pretty much all I could find was people without a CHL going to a car or home and returning to shoot someone.

Does anyone know of an instance where a CHL holder had an argument at work that resulted in a shooting that wasn't ruled self defense? Or is this the typical smokescreen/excuse to avoid allowing concealed carry?

[Flightmare]

I was in a training event at my place of employment last week and our Risk Management folks were doing part of the training. At one point concealed carry at work was mentioned and the reason we can't amounted to "if they have to go to their car to get a gun they will most likely cool off and not shoot someone." Since I thought this was pretty flimsy, I started searching online to find examples of this, mostly concentrating on Texas. Pretty much all I could find was people without a CHL going to a car or home and returning to shoot someone.

Does anyone know of an instance where a CHL holder had an argument at work that resulted in a shooting that wasn't ruled self defense? Or is this the typical smokescreen/excuse to avoid allowing concealed carry?

None that I am aware of. You might ask if they can provide some examples so that you can pass those on to others. I doubt they have any though.

[Jusme]

I was in a training event at my place of employment last week and our Risk Management folks were doing part of the training. At one point concealed carry at work was mentioned and the reason we can't amounted to "if they have to go to their car to get a gun they will most likely cool off and not shoot someone." Since I thought this was pretty flimsy, I started searching online to find examples of this, mostly concentrating on Texas. Pretty much all I could find was people without a CHL going to a car or home and returning to shoot someone.

Does anyone know of an instance where a CHL holder had an argument at work that resulted in a shooting that wasn't ruled self defense? Or is this the typical smokescreen/excuse to avoid allowing concealed carry?

Sounds like the typical argument against LTC holders in general, in that non-LTC holders, and anti-gun leftists, have the idea, that we are somehow more prone to violence because we choose to carry guns. The facts bear themselves out in the DPS CHL holder crime statistics. I haven't heard of any CHL holders committing workplace violence. I do know that the majority of people who have used guns in the workplace, didn't "cool off" they usually planned their crime in advance, came to the workplace specifically to shoot someone, or multiple someones, because of disagreements, loss of employment, or some other perceived reason known only to them.

Our record speaks for itself, and who ever is conducting the seminar, is either misinformed, or is furthering an agenda. JMHO

[WildBill]

I was in a training event at my place of employment last week and our Risk Management folks were doing part of the training. At one point concealed carry at work was mentioned and the reason we can't amounted to "if they have to go to their car to get a gun they will most likely cool off and not shoot someone." Since I thought this was pretty flimsy, I started searching online to find examples of this, mostly concentrating on Texas. Pretty much all I could find was people without a CHL going to a car or home and returning to shoot someone.

Does anyone know of an instance where a CHL holder had an argument at work that resulted in a shooting that wasn't ruled self defense? Or is this the typical smokescreen/excuse to avoid allowing concealed carry?

Sounds like the typical argument against LTC holders in general, in that non-LTC holders, and anti-gun leftists, have the idea, that we are somehow more prone to violence because we choose to carry guns. The facts bear themselves out in the DPS CHL holder crime statistics. I haven't heard of any CHL holders committing workplace violence. I do know that the majority of people who have used guns in the workplace, didn't "cool off" they usually planned their crime in advance, came to the workplace specifically to shoot someone, or multiple someones, because of disagreements, loss of employment, or some other perceived reason known only to them.

Our record speaks for itself, and who ever is conducting the seminar, is either misinformed, or is furthering an agenda. JMHO

[ELB]

If you check the stats that the DPS publishes and that Charles Cotton expands upon in this forum, you will see that, IIRC, last year there were three [corrected] LTC holders convicted of murder. I'm not sure how you would run down the actual names, but I will bet that none of them involved someone getting brassed off at work and instantly blasting his coworkers. The total number of LTC'ers convicted of ANY crime runs right around 100 for each year since 2002 -- even with the huge increase in LTCs issued in the last few years.

The Risk Management people are full of ... let's say, they're just ignorant.

ETA: here is thread with the stats that Charles compiles: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=17975. I was off by 25% in my memory -- last year (2015) there were three license holders convicted of murder, not four. The all-time high for the period 2002 to 2015 was seven in 2010. The low was zero.

[mloamiller]

I don't think the CHL statistics indicate the details on the murder convictions, i.e. where, how, etc. so they may not have been committed with a gun.

Another interesting statistic to throw into the mix is comparing incidents of crimes committed specifically with a gun between LTC holders and police officers. According to the article below, the rate is over 20 times higher for police officers compared to licensed individuals; that's nationwide, not just Texas. As noted in the article, actual numbers are hard to come by, so the numbers are just estimates, and both numbers are very, very low, but it's still a substantial difference.

http://crimeresearch.org/2015/02/compar ... it-holders

So putting the police numbers at an annual rate gives you a rate of 0.01%. Both 0.01% or 0.0003% are both extremely low and the violations might not be comparable in that the private individuals might run into problems that a police officer (even one off duty might not run into), but the rate for police is still 23 times higher.

[ELB]

I don't think the CHL statistics indicate the details on the murder convictions, i.e. where, how, etc. so they may not have been committed with a gun.

Also an excellent point.

[ScottDLS]

Hopefully the risk mgt folks think of the '91 Luby's massacre. Former legislator Susana Hupp had left her gun in the car since there was no legal carry in Texas back then...Since she was unable to retrieve it she had no chance to stop the killing. Actually, if she had the gun in the passenger compartment, that was illegal too...

However, none of this seemed to occur to the shooter.

[Waco1959]

Thanks for all the replies. I spent several hours searching and found several cases of murder where the perp MAY have had a CHL but nothing like the scenario mentioned by Risk Management. I thought I would ask just to see if anyone was aware of such a case.

I'm familiar with the stats Charles does such a great job with but the link comparing police and CHL convictions was new.

I had met the Gratia family several years before the shooting because they were regular customers at a business in Copperas Cove that my mother managed. I met them when visiting the business and was living in Denton when the shooting occurred. I was casually acquainted with several of the folks from Copperas Cove that were shot.