LTC Class-High Pressure Sales Tactics for Legal Defense programs

[Glock4ever]

Anybody know the status of the law suit about these sorts of practices?

What lawsuit? Do you have a link?

It was a class-action filing in summer 2015. The Harris County civil court judge did certify that CHL/LTC holders would be considered a "group" for purposes of the lawsuit. I don't personally know any recent status of the suit.

That said, because the Forum's audience and the Texas target market for these types of prepaid legal services overlap so much as to be almost indistinguishable, and because a Texas class-action suit is either pending or underway, we've had for about year now a policy of not allowing company names to be mentioned, detailed specifics of service offerings to be discussed, and no direct links to be posted...regardless of whether the context is positive or negative.

The moderators have edited a score of posts over this issue, deleted some, and some terms were even added to the prohibited word filter as a result. So please let this serve as a general notice that we have to watch Topics like this closely

General conversation about the concepts and how it's handled in LTC classes is fine. But you'll need to a little individual Google-fu to research the lawsuit on your own.

Thanks for the info I found a good write up on them.

A bit disappointed in the shooting community that ranges and instructors still support this practice. Guess like everything else it's all about the money.

[rotor]

I say let the buyer beware!

Reminds me of the credit life pitches made when you buy a new car or that silly "flight insurance" in case your plane falls out of the sky and you die. Extremely low likelihood of a claim but fat commissions and profits for those on the insurance side.

Would love to see their books on claims made/claims paid against the backdrop of their premiums collected. Of course they will not provide you this information. I won't call it a scam but I will call it a rip-off.

I had a friend with terminal brain cancer buy a car for his wife and took the credit life insurance and died within one or two weeks of the purchase. His wife was very grateful that she got a new car. Otherwise it is not a good investment as you said.

[Crossfire]

Thanks for the info I found a good write up on them.

A bit disappointed in the shooting community that ranges and instructors still support this practice. Guess like everything else it's all about the money.

It is, indeed, all about the money. Another instructor flat out told me that he sells his class for less than mine because of the hefty commission he receives for selling the prepaid legal program. And since we are in the same area, and his class is $5 less, then he fills his seats up.

I still have to sleep at night, so we just charge a fair price, and give students the straight scoop with no added sales pitch (revenue enhancers).

[PUCKER]

Thanks for the info I found a good write up on them.

A bit disappointed in the shooting community that ranges and instructors still support this practice. Guess like everything else it's all about the money.

It is, indeed, all about the money. Another instructor flat out told me that he sells his class for less than mine because of the hefty commission he receives for selling the prepaid legal program. And since we are in the same area, and his class is $5 less, then he fills his seats up.

I still have to sleep at night, so we just charge a fair price, and give students the straight scoop with no added sales pitch (revenue enhancers).

Pretend I'm hitting the "LIKE" button!

[E.Marquez]

I had the opportunity to observe a class recently - good instructor and he clearly said it was a break and feel free to stay or take break.

But funniest thing said was that pre-paid legal service is who the legislature calls to get advice on all gun bills as they write most of them.

I'm not the least surprised that they make that false claim. Someone in every class needs to ask "what is not covered? What do I have to pay out of my pocket if I call on you?"

Chas.

I did, I was told.// "good question, please take my card and send me an email or call Id be happy to talk to you about that" and then i was summarily dismissed, would not even look in my direction less I were to ask another question I suppose. I was paying for and taking the class a second time as I needed a CE credit for work, and I figured why not... It was a frustrating and unpleasant experience... I was also asked to "help" on the range with keeping an eye on some of the more difficult students ..safe orientation of muzzle and loading was a special thing for a few.

Keep in mind, I did not relate my previous experience, did not out myself as an experienced firearms handler, user, instructor.. I was just some middle age guy in class that seems to know what i was doing.

[MrMcCullster]

I finally took my class this year in July in Mesquite, TX, and the pre-paid legal defense program 30-minute lecture and then form fill-out for those who wanted to join counted towards our hours of classroom time. The instructor left the room to go do something while the two gentlemen went through their sales pitch, then the salesmen left to come back after the course and give us our method of payment back, printed membership cards and pamphlets.

I know there have been numerous threads on here about the pre-paid legal defense programs worth and what-not, so I won't go into that, but I went ahead and signed up the day of my CHL class.

I was uninformed when it came to CHL and what happens after a self defense shooting. I had owned a pistol for 5 years and kept it on my nightstand without one in the chamber, and took it to the range once or twice a year with a friend who randomly wanted to go shoot. I treated the CHL license as a proof of safety, not really knowing what it really meant to "carry". When we went to Bass Pro one of those shooting range occasions, I heard the employee at the front say, "If you guys had a CHL, I'd waive you on by." Instead, we had to spend 10-15 minutes of unpacking our gear, getting gun serial numbers, attaching trigger locks, and walking back to the gun range to do it all in reverse again. So, this being my only interaction with someone asking or wanting to see a CHL, it was to prove to outsiders (i.e. the guy at the front of a department store) that I was safe with storing and handling my firearm. So, if that's the only interaction you have with a CHL, you don't really see it as anything else.

One of the reasons they get people (at least they did me) is the shock to find out that there is a whole other side of a self defense shooting. Regular people like younger me don't know these things and don't think about them

[E.Marquez]

One of the reasons they get people (at least they did me) is the shock to find out that there is a whole other side of a self defense shooting. Regular people like younger me don't know these things and don't think about them

Do yourself a favor for peace of mind... Research IN TEXAS, the number of cases where a person possessing an LTC has been indicted by grand jury.. AND those that possess an LTC have been sued civilly as a result of a self defense shooting.
I think the results and an honest evaluation will result in you being more concerned of being attacked but a circus tiger let loose from the zoo than a criminal or civil issue following a justified self defense shooting. '

[Ruark]

A very popular legal service gives LTC instructors a $30 bonus for every student they sign up. That explains a lot.

[Archery1]

At the range I took my CHL, they did the same, but it also came with perks. The range gives 1/2 off range fees and some other perks for insurance members. So, I could spend $135 per year for the insurance to save around 4 times that in range fees just based one visit per week. I had nothing to lose. I wasn't going often enough to make their shop membership pay off better.

[lws380]

I say let the buyer beware!

Reminds me of the credit life pitches made when you buy a new car or that silly "flight insurance" in case your plane falls out of the sky and you die. Extremely low likelihood of a claim but fat commissions and profits for those on the insurance side.

Would love to see their books on claims made/claims paid against the backdrop of their premiums collected. Of course they will not provide you this information. I won't call it a scam but I will call it a rip-off.

I had a friend with terminal brain cancer buy a car for his wife and took the credit life insurance and died within one or two weeks of the purchase. His wife was very grateful that she got a new car. Otherwise it is not a good investment as you said.

Credit life generally has a pre-existing medical condition clause. If you purchase it after already being diagnosed, a claim will likely be declined. Otherwise, lots of widows would be driving new Mercedes Benz's. Many times the bank will stop the payments while getting medical records. Dying from cancer two weeks after getting credit life is a big red flag. After they pull records and find you had a pre-existing condition, they will deny the claim and ask for back payments that had stopped.

[rotor]

I say let the buyer beware!

Reminds me of the credit life pitches made when you buy a new car or that silly "flight insurance" in case your plane falls out of the sky and you die. Extremely low likelihood of a claim but fat commissions and profits for those on the insurance side.

Would love to see their books on claims made/claims paid against the backdrop of their premiums collected. Of course they will not provide you this information. I won't call it a scam but I will call it a rip-off.

I had a friend with terminal brain cancer buy a car for his wife and took the credit life insurance and died within one or two weeks of the purchase. His wife was very grateful that she got a new car. Otherwise it is not a good investment as you said.

Credit life generally has a pre-existing medical condition clause. If you purchase it after already being diagnosed, a claim will likely be declined. Otherwise, lots of widows would be driving new Mercedes Benz's. Many times the bank will stop the payments while getting medical records. Dying from cancer two weeks after getting credit life is a big red flag. After they pull records and find you had a pre-existing condition, they will deny the claim and ask for back payments that had stopped.

I too would have thought that would have been the case for sure but in this case that did not happen and the wife got the car free and clear. That was 28 years ago but a true story.

[rm9792]

My wife took her ltc at Big Kountry in Alvin recently and it was the same deal. It was a "break" but still a scared captive audience. Overall the class was fine but the instructor spent more time discussing bug out bags, spare mags and survival than laws and procedures. I feel I am cynical and very aware but this guy was out and out paranoid. Several students talked about it in the lobby waiting to qualify. I have attended several classes for renewals and this was by far the oddest.

[twomillenium]

I guess even the conservatives have their snowflakes.

[Skiprr]

Overall the class was fine but the instructor spent more time discussing bug out bags, spare mags and survival than laws and procedures. I feel I am cynical and very aware but this guy was out and out paranoid. Several students talked about it in the lobby waiting to qualify. I have attended several classes for renewals and this was by far the oddest.

If you see something, say something.

Seriously.

Texas has some absolutely exemplary CHL/LTC instructors. I'm proud to know a few of them, and I would--and do--recommend them to everyone.

But it's a bell curve: at the far left are ones who passed the DPS qualification but who, sadly, maybe shouldn't be trying to teach anybody anything.

The DPS standardization requirements and student test results can't monitor for qualitative performance. If a class seems flat-out wrong, report it to DPS.

[Abraham]

I hope in upcoming years, prospective LTC students ask of their potential instructors: Will I be subjected at to "any" type (not just insurance) sales presentation during my LTC course?

If the answer is "yes" avoid this instructor's LTC class like the plague...

P.S. Instructors supplying alternative answers to this question such as, "it'll only be voluntary or only if you want to or you're not required to listen or any other evasive nonsense answers are also complete disqualifiers for taking this instructors course...