How would an 06/07 violation actually happen?

[Ruark]

I was just trying to visualize how a violation would actually happen - that is, the Class C Misdemeanor of carrying past a sign. I'm thinking of 3 different possible scenarios.

1. The property owner in some manner recognizes that you're carrying, and asks you to leave. So you leave. But then what? Would he call the police, then when they arrive, tell them "that guy has/had a gun on him" and the police go cite you? Well, assuming you're hanging around the parking lot. But even then, can the police cite you for a Class C based on somebody else's statement like that?

2. The property owner recognizes that you're carrying, but doesn't say anything. Instead, he quietly calls the police, and when they arrive, he points you out (assuming you're still there). Then the police approach you and cite you.

The only way I can see these first two happening with a concealed carrier is accidentally exposing your gun, or printing. I'm not sure that the owner could do this based on a print. Could the police approach you when they arrive and say "uh, sir, is that a firearm you're carrying inside that shirt?"

3. A police officer just HAPPENS to be in the place of business the same time you are, sees the gun (hard to do if you're carrying concealed), and cites you.

I find all of these to be very unlikely, unless there's some component of this picture I haven't thought of.

[Mxrdad]

I have had the same thoughts. I think it boils down to behavior. If the owner asks you to leave and you do, I think it would end there. OTH, if one stomps his feet and/or gives an attitude, the owner would possibly feel he only has 1 choice left which would be a call to LE. I know it's impossible to predict others behavior, and I'm sure there are some owners out there that absolutely hate guns, but I think the majority of encounters would play out as a non event. Just my not so humble opinion.

[chasfm11]

Sometimes, I think that we on the forum put to fine a point on the law. I was talking with our local police chief and he, without prompting, told me that the active LTC people probably know the gun laws better than his officers do, off the top of their heads. Any officer can research the TPC once a situation presents itself.

I mention this because I don't think that some (many?) store owners understand the laws that well either. There have been enough stories reported here about confrontations that occur in unposted stores where the employee points to the TABC signs as a ban on firearms. I think that would be especially true for a place that had say, an invalid 30.06. The number of locations in my area with those invalid signs has dwindled to almost nothing since all of the news on OC. But that was always the situation that I thought about. I will never pass a valid 30.06 but I did carry in places with invalid signs. Either of your scenarios with the confrontation or the secret call to police would have applied.

A lot of things would have to line up for that to happen. You would have to have a super-vigilant owner or store employee or a flagrantly sloppy concealment just to get past the detection part. I constantly watch, feel like I know what I'm looking for and where to look and rarely see even a tell-tale "bulge." Perhaps an off-duty officer working plain clothes security would be more vigilant in looking than I am. But then there is the action part. If the owner or store employee suspected that you were a criminal concealing, that might prompt quick action.

I think .07 signs/situations are off the table in this discussion. I know of several places including my old church which developed policies of serving individual notice rather than putting up signs for OC. If someone passes a .07 sign OC, even if the sign is invalid, I cannot imagine what they are hoping to accomplish.

[goose]

I also suspect the vast majority of encounters, if handled politely, would be non-events.

1) Owner asks you to leave, and you do, it is all over.
2) LEO is called without your knowledge, they walk up ask to see LTC, then ask you to leave, and you do, it is all over.
3) Owner tells you that they already done called the po-po, you leave, depending on how quickly the LEO show up, it is all over. LEO interview owner. "So you notified them and they left?" "Yes." "Thank you for letting us verify that they did what you asked." I would probably have my LTC out as I walked to the car so that I wouldn't have to dig for it if LEO showed up quickly and with any level of anxiety. (I would not imagine that any variation of a man with a gun call would be fun or routine on the LEO's part)

If a person were honestly just carrying to protect themselves and/or immediate family without socio-political agendas, any encounters would likely be a minor inconvenience and moving on with your day. And socio-political agendas can even be warranted at times (not 30.06 related, IMO). Assuming that those actors aren't completely naive about what they are getting into, they already know that they may have a longer day.

[AJSully421]

I also suspect the vast majority of encounters, if handled politely, would be non-events.

1) Owner asks you to leave, and you do, it is all over.
2) LEO is called without your knowledge, they walk up ask to see LTC, then ask you to leave, and you do, it is all over.
3) Owner tells you that they already done called the po-po, you leave, depending on how quickly the LEO show up, it is all over. LEO interview owner. "So you notified them and they left?" "Yes." "Thank you for letting us verify that they did what you asked." I would probably have my LTC out as I walked to the car so that I wouldn't have to dig for it if LEO showed up quickly and with any level of anxiety. (I would not imagine that any variation of a man with a gun call would be fun or routine on the LEO's part)

If a person were honestly just carrying to protect themselves and/or immediate family without socio-political agendas, any encounters would likely be a minor inconvenience and moving on with your day. And socio-political agendas can even be warranted at times (not 30.06 related, IMO). Assuming that those actors aren't completely naive about what they are getting into, they already know that they may have a longer day.

I think your response is pretty much how it will go down , unless you get an anti-gun cop who is responding. I think that 95% of police recognize that we are the good guys too, and will go out of their way to not write a ticket so long as we act properly as well.

Bottom line is if you leave, things should work out fine. If you stand there and yell about your rights, not so much. Above all else, every bit of this becomes pointless if you are properly concealing.... because how will they know to bother you?

[Acronym Esq]

I was just trying to visualize how a violation would actually happen - that is, the Class C Misdemeanor of carrying past a sign.
The only way I can see these first two happening with a concealed carrier is accidentally exposing your gun, or printing. I'm not sure that the owner could do this based on a print. Could the police approach you when they arrive and say "uh, sir, is that a firearm you're carrying inside that shirt?"
I find all of these to be very unlikely, unless there's some component of this picture I haven't thought of.

I agree. I also agree with goose that these would be unpleasant "man with a gun" type calls.

I can also imagine something happening in the area involving unrelated people that causes the police to show up and want to talk to everyone.

• Someone drives their car into the front of the store.
• Someone tries to rob the store. I was just at the grocery store when a bunch of employees and a couple officers were comparing notes and descriptions about a shoplifter.
• A domestic dispute in the store erupts into ugliness.
• There is a medical emergency and you offer aid.
• There is a fire.
• The president decides to eat dinner at the restaurant you are at. This is very intimidating when it happens because secret service enter in force and talk to everyone.

These instances might lead to an officer asking you to identify yourself thereby triggering a "shall identify" (411.205).

Acronym 3/31/2017 9:25 AM

[troglodyte]

I assume you are not asking in order to actually disregard valid 30.06 signs since we do not promote illegal actions on this site.

If you consciously carry past the valid, properly posted 30.06 sign then you are in violation.
If you don't see the valid, properly posted 30.06 sign for some reason and carry in then you are still in violation. How it goes down from there is unknown.

If by chance, close observation, or poor concealment the owner or employee sees, or thinks they see, a concealed gun then they could call the police without you knowing it. Or if one of the above mentioned scenarios occurs you may be "caught". When the police arrive there will be some questioning. Since you carried past a valid, properly posted sign they could cite you. How the officer, you, and the owner or employee interact may be the determining factor. The shop owner may insist that the penalty be applied since he followed the law and posted a properly installed and valid 30.06 sign. Regardless of why you carried past the sign I don't see any argument you could provide to refute his wishes.

I hope calm would prevail and the offender would gracefully, humbly, and sincerely express their apologizes for the unintentional infraction and leave without a scene. Likewise I would hope the officer and owner would accept the apology and let it go. If the act was intentional then I don't have much sympathy for what might happen.

[imkopaka]

I mention this because I don't think that some (many?) store owners understand the laws that well either. There have been enough stories reported here about confrontations that occur in unposted stores where the employee points to the TABC signs as a ban on firearms. I think that would be especially true for a place that had say, an invalid 30.06. The number of locations in my area with those invalid signs has dwindled to almost nothing since all of the news on OC. But that was always the situation that I thought about. I will never pass a valid 30.06 but I did carry in places with invalid signs. Either of your scenarios with the confrontation or the secret call to police would have applied.

That happened to me once OC'ing in a liquor store. Employee thought I couldn't carry because of posted TABC blue signs. I explained the difference between blue and red signs and she didn't believe me so we got her manager, who basically told her she needed to go re-read the TABC laws.

I can also imagine something happening in the area involving unrelated people that causes the police to show up and want to talk to everyone.

• Someone drives their car into the front of the store.
• Someone tries to rob the store. I was just at the grocery store when a bunch of employees and a couple officers were comparing notes and descriptions about a shoplifter.
• A domestic dispute in the store erupts into ugliness.
• There is a medical emergency and you offer aid.
• There is a fire.
• The president decides to eat dinner at the restaurant you are at. This is very intimidating when it happens because secret service enter in force and talk to everyone.

These instances might lead to an officer asking you to identify yourself thereby triggering a "shall identify" (411.205).

That's an interesting thought I hadn't considered. Most of us never think we will be asked for ID outside our vehicles, do we?

[locke_n_load]

Open Carrier carries past an 07 sign. Property owner calls cops without saying anything to the carrier and cops show up and write a class C ticket. That's about it.

[JustSomeOldGuy]

I'm going to guess that most officers will handle 06/07 the same way they handle 30.05 violations. At the public institution I work at, we periodically have to tell someone they are now persona non grata for exhibiting behaviour that violates our published policy document (which has been vetted before the fact by the board, the city commission, and legal dept.). Law enforcement is summoned, person is told in the presence of an officer, not to come back, and why. Assuming no violations of any penal codes are involved, a case number is issued by PD, and they escort the individual off the property. If they refuse to leave 30.05 is invoked, and they 'take the ride' (trespass after warning). Or, if they leave sedately, but come back at some point in the future, PD is called, case number cited, 30.05 is invoked, etc.

For 06/07 if you appear cooperative, and/or repentant, and/or not too bright then I'm guessing you probably won't be cited for the Class C. If they catch you a second time, they will cite you.....

[rdcrags]

" If the act were intentional then I don't have much sympathy for what might happen."
I don't advocate ignoring an 06 sign, either. However, if a guy takes the risk of being cited and pays the fine, knowing that the flip side is possibly saving the lives of his wife or kids, well, he's not valuing your sympathy anyhow, is he?