Unlicensed Carry on Private Property

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

Moderators: Charles L. Cotton, carlson1


Topic author
diverman26
Junior Member
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:50 am

Unlicensed Carry on Private Property

Postby diverman26 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:02 pm

I couldn't think of a short way to ask the exact question in the title so here it is:

Is it legal to carry a concealed weapon in my place of business?

While it is open to the public I own the property.

Also, can I allow others to carry while on my property?

Both questions assume non-LTC holders but otherwise allowed to own firearms.

It's not something that has ever come up, but I was just wondering how far my rights extended on my property.


bubba84
Member
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:43 am

Re: Unlicensed Carry on Private Property

Postby bubba84 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:15 pm

Yes and yes.

Doesnt have to be concealed either.

User avatar

Vol Texan
Senior Member
Posts: 1657
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:18 am
Location: Houston

Re: Unlicensed Carry on Private Property

Postby Vol Texan » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:16 pm

diverman26 wrote:I couldn't think of a short way to ask the exact question in the title so here it is:

Is it legal to carry a concealed weapon in my place of business?

While it is open to the public I own the property.

Also, can I allow others to carry while on my property?

Both questions assume non-LTC holders but otherwise allowed to own firearms.

It's not something that has ever come up, but I was just wondering how far my rights extended on my property.



Welcome to the forum, diverman26.
  1. Yes, you can carry if you own and/or are in control of the property
  2. They can carry if they are in control of the property (e.g. you manager can carry while managing)
  3. No, you cannot empower others to do so without an LTC, but if they have one, you may allow it.
Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
When those fail, aim for center mass.

Armored Cav. | NRA Certified Pistol Instructor | www.Texas3006.com Moderator


srothstein
Senior Member
Posts: 3841
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:27 pm
Location: Luling, TX

Re: Unlicensed Carry on Private Property

Postby srothstein » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:16 am

I thought I would post to break the tie between Vol Texan and Bubba84. I believe Vol Texan gave you the best answer, but I thought I would explain it a little more.

The current state of Texas law is that you may always carry on property you own or that is under your control. As such, you can carry in your business, either openly or concealed. I will caution that open carry may alienate some potential customers and may or may not be the proper tactical choice in the case of a robbery.

Your managers would be legal to carry when they can say the property is under their control (and you get to define how much control they have while you are present). This leads to some very interesting legal questions on what is control. Some places, such as most gun shops, allow all employees to carry openly at work. It is commonly expected and their clientele are not offended by such. I am not sure of the real legality of allowing the sales clerk to carry but it is almost never questioned. You could do the same with your employees if you and your lawyer agree on what constitutes their control of the property.

It is illegal for anyone to carry a handgun, either openly or concealed, on any property they do not own or control unless they have a license from the state. There is no method for a property owner to say that a person may carry on their property in violation of the law. But it is possible to encourage licensed carry. To ban a licensed carrier from carrying on your property requires some very specific signs. If you do not post any signs, you are allowing people with licenses to carry, either openly or concealed. And you can encourage it by posting signs that specifically tell people that licensed carry is welcome. There have been a few places that post signs like this and it generally gets the business some free advertising when it is noticed by a carrier as we talk to each other, such as in forums like this one.
Steve Rothstein

User avatar

SIGFan43
Member
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:26 am

Re: Unlicensed Carry on Private Property

Postby SIGFan43 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:31 am

I like the fact that Collin Street Bakery at Hideaway on Hwy 849 near Lindale has a sign at the front entrance encouraging licensed concealed carry on their premises.
SIGFan43


dlh
Senior Member
Posts: 439
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:16 pm

Re: Unlicensed Carry on Private Property

Postby dlh » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:54 am

How about a shooting range on private property? Lots of those in Texas. Are all of the customers who come onto the property to shoot their handguns and pay a fee for that service in violation of Texas law, assuming they are non-LTC?...

What if a rancher with sandpits on his ranch allows friends who are non-LTC to bring their handguns onto his property and shoot paper targets in the sandpits? Is that a violation of Texas law?...

I think we have discussed some of these issues in previous threads without coming to any certain conclusion.


apostate
Senior Member
Posts: 1967
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:01 am
Location: Houston Texas

Re: Unlicensed Carry on Private Property

Postby apostate » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:00 am

dlh wrote:How about a shooting range on private property? Lots of those in Texas. Are all of the customers who come onto the property to shoot their handguns and pay a fee for that service in violation of Texas law, assuming they are non-LTC?...

What if a rancher with sandpits on his ranch allows friends who are non-LTC to bring their handguns onto his property and shoot paper targets in the sandpits? Is that a violation of Texas law?...

I think we have discussed some of these issues in previous threads without coming to any certain conclusion.


"is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted..."
I'm too old for this...


imkopaka
Senior Member
Posts: 239
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:30 pm
Location: Lamesa, TX

Re: Unlicensed Carry on Private Property

Postby imkopaka » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:56 am

There are some good answers here. Definitely talk to a lawyer about the legalities of allowing managers, etc to carry sans-LTC.

Out of curiosity, what kind of business do you own?
Never bring a knife to a gun fight.
Carry gun: Springfield XD Tactical .45

User avatar

puma guy
Senior Member
Posts: 5063
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:23 pm
Location: Near San Jacinto

Re: Unlicensed Carry on Private Property

Postby puma guy » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:04 pm

I don't know where it is stated in the law, but I was under the impression I can carry my handgun while hunting on someone's property with their permission.
KAHR PM40/Hoffner IWB and S&W Mod 60/ Galco IWB
NRA Endowment Member, TSRA Life Member,100 Club Life Member,TFC Member
My Faith, My Gun and My Constitution: I cling to all three!
Image

User avatar

rtschl
Senior Member
Posts: 604
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:50 pm
Location: Fort Worth

Re: Unlicensed Carry on Private Property

Postby rtschl » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:22 pm

apostate wrote:
"is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted..."


That's the key for unlicensed carry. But with regards to giving permission to someone without a license at a business not involved in the above, I remember discussions here that focused on the fact that you cannot give someone permission to break the law just because it is your private property. So if they are in control of the premises that is fine as that is stated in the statue. But if not, I would think it would be in violation.
Ron
NRA Member


Soccerdad1995
Senior Member
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:03 pm

Re: Unlicensed Carry on Private Property

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:33 pm

rtschl wrote:
apostate wrote:
"is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted..."


That's the key for unlicensed carry. But with regards to giving permission to someone without a license at a business not involved in the above, I remember discussions here that focused on the fact that you cannot give someone permission to break the law just because it is your private property. So if they are in control of the premises that is fine as that is stated in the statue. But if not, I would think it would be in violation.


I remember one discussion in particular where the consensus seemed to be that it would be illegal for me to have a new shooter come to my house to go over gun safety rules and the operation and use of the guns we will be shooting, before we head to the range. As soon as they pick up a gun in my house, they would be violating the law since they don't have an LTC. To be legal, I would need to have them first touch the gun while we are at the firing line and they are struggling to hear anything I am saying. Definitely a case of the law being flat out stupid. But it is the law, I believe.

To the post above about hunting, it is legal to carry a gun without an LTC while you are engaged in hunting, so you are fine there. You really just need the property owners permission to be hunting on their property at all, not specifically related to your carrying of a gun while doing so.
Ding dong, the witch is dead


Topic author
diverman26
Junior Member
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:50 am

Re: Unlicensed Carry on Private Property

Postby diverman26 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:51 pm

As an addendum, it amazes me how the responsibility I have undertaken brings questions to mind that I never contemplated before.

After reading this forum for a while, two things strike me:

1. (unsurprisingly) The vast majority of gun owners take their responsibility very serious

2. The adage of you never know how much you don't know.


Topic author
diverman26
Junior Member
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:50 am

Re: Unlicensed Carry on Private Property

Postby diverman26 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:52 pm

First of all, thanks for the thoughtful responses. Most of the answers are intuitive, but you know - lawmakers.

I own an industrial service company. 95% of my customers have no idea where we are physically located but we do have the occasional walk-in.

Because of the location I have always armed myself after hours or when working alone. I've always carried on the premise that if the need to actually use deadly force arises, I want to be the one explaining what happened.

I do allow my employees who are LTC to carry at work if they want to but because we are frequently in the refineries, most keep it in their personal vehicle (unless we are working nights).

User avatar

Pawpaw
Senior Member
Posts: 5489
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:16 am
Location: Hunt County

Re: Unlicensed Carry on Private Property

Postby Pawpaw » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:11 pm

puma guy wrote:I don't know where it is stated in the law, but I was under the impression I can carry my handgun while hunting on someone's property with their permission.

PC §46.15. NON-APPLICABILITY wrote:(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(3) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor’s residence, motor vehicle, or watercraft, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams

NRA Benefactor Life Member

User avatar

puma guy
Senior Member
Posts: 5063
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:23 pm
Location: Near San Jacinto

Re: Unlicensed Carry on Private Property

Postby puma guy » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:16 pm

Pawpaw wrote:
puma guy wrote:I don't know where it is stated in the law, but I was under the impression I can carry my handgun while hunting on someone's property with their permission.

PC §46.15. NON-APPLICABILITY wrote:(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(3) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor’s residence, motor vehicle, or watercraft, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;

Does a .44 Mag Ruger Super Blackhawk qualify? LOL
KAHR PM40/Hoffner IWB and S&W Mod 60/ Galco IWB
NRA Endowment Member, TSRA Life Member,100 Club Life Member,TFC Member
My Faith, My Gun and My Constitution: I cling to all three!
Image


Return to “General Texas CHL Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests