Gun Buster Signs

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rotor
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Re: Gun Buster Signs

#16

Post by rotor » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:45 pm

treadlightly wrote:So a gun buster sign is legal, but only applies to people already prohibited from carrying firearms?

Not trying to pop off, just trying to see what use a gun buster sign has. I generally go elsewhere because I figured there's other baggage going along with the anti-gun nonsense, but I also feel the "mail not addressed to me" attitude makes some sense, too.
I could see that a person that had been to a field sporting event could be staying at a hotel that might have a gun buster sign. The person would be legal carrying his gun to his room but might be trespassing if a No Firearms sign was posted that was clearly identifiable.


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Re: Gun Buster Signs

#17

Post by thetexan » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:04 am

ScottDLS wrote:
rotor wrote:
srothstein wrote:
skeathley wrote:"Gun-buster" refers to the gun in a circle, the intl symbol for no guns. By itself, it has no legal status in Texas. "No guns", "no weapons", "no firearms", etc. are all non-conforming signs, and have no force of law in Texas, including with knives.
I disagree on this. The signs are legal in Texas and can be enforced. They are not applicable to a person with an LTC carrying a pistol, but are all legal under Penal Code section 30.05 for everyone else or for other weapons.
What would be enforced? What are the size requirements? What other weapons? What percentage of the sign needs to be red? Does the sign have to have specific borders like in Illinois? How about long guns? How does the public know what a Beretta in a red circle with a slash specifically means? I know this has no effect on LTC holders but how about a gun owner bringing a gun into a hotel room where such a sign is posted outside? Especially if there is no wording on the sign. This can be enforced by law enforcement?
:iagree:

In order to be convicted of trespass under 30.05 you would have to be given notice that your entrance to the property was prohibited. I don't know how a sign with a circle slash pictogram meets that requirement. Particularly in a location open to the public. I am aware that 22 years ago AG Morales gave an opinion that 30.05 could be used to exclude handgun carriers, presumably licensed or otherwise, via a sign. No specification was given for the sign in the opinion, so I'm not sure where the idea of a pictogram came from. As far as I can tell there is no other evidence of 30.05 being enforced without explicit notice given that your entry was prohibited, not to be inferred from a list of rules or desires or a cartoon.

Anyway, I've always thought the opinion was dubious, especially since as written it would have applied to active peace officers whether on duty or not. But regardless, it became moot 2 years later in 1997 when 30.06 was passed. The form for excluding handgun carry was then explicitly specified. It actually wasn't until 2003 that the exclusion for CHL and LEO was added to 30.05, though in my opinion it wasn't necessary as related to SIGNS.
I agree with Scott. Under 30.05 any required notice to invoke the no trespassing must prohibit THE PERSON from entering.

For example, these two versions are different legally...
"All persons carrying any weapons may not enter", and...
"No weapons allowed" do not say the same thing.

In the first case any person of the specified class is prohibited from entering thus meeting the requirement of prohibiting entry of THE PERSON.

In the second case you are not prohibiting entry of the person but describing a prohibited behavior by a person, that of carrying a weapon. If I violate that by carrying a weapon I have merely violated a policy against a specified behavior. Same with "no smoking allowed" or "dinner jackets must be worn".

Let's say I enter without a dinner jacket...what are you going to do? If you want me to leave you must convey that by giving notice that I must leave. NOW I have been notified. If you say " sir you must put on a jacket NOW" and I don't then there we are....me in violation of the no jacket policy STILL sitting there jacketless and you still needing to say the magic words..."leave".

30.05 is crystal clear....the notice must give notice that entry on the property [by the person, sic] is prohibited. So wording is everything.

"No (insert your favorite item here) allowed" and
"No persons with (insert your favorite item here) may enter this property" say two entirely different things when seen through the requirements of 30.05. In the former no person is prohibited from entry, but rather a thing or behavior is prohibited. In the latter, a person or specific class of person is prohibited.

Tex
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Re: Gun Buster Signs

#18

Post by Keith B » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:36 am

We need to remember that 30.05 DOES apply to LTC holders. The only exemption you get as an LTC is if they are saying you can't enter because of the handgun (which the gunbuster sign implies)
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden;  and
(2) the person was carrying:
(A) a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,  [FN1] to carry a handgun;  and
(B) a handgun:
(i) in a concealed manner;  or
(ii) in a shoulder or belt holster.
and it is only a defense to prosecution, not that the section does not apply as it does to active peace officers:
(i) This section does not apply if:
(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun or other weapon was forbidden;  and
(2) the actor at the time of the offense was a peace officer, including a commissioned peace officer of a recognized state, or a special investigator under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure , regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator was engaged in the actual discharge of an official duty while carrying the weapon.
So, the potential of a ride still exists if the officer believes there is probable cause for the arrest.
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Re: Gun Buster Signs

#19

Post by C-dub » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:21 am

There are also a lot of gunbuster signs on windows that have been there for years and the current resident/business owner may not even be aware of its presence or care. I think that was also one of the reasons for 30.06 becuase there were so many of them that had been around for years or decades that it could potentially make almost all places legally off limits. Or something similar to that effect.
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Re: Gun Buster Signs

#20

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:37 am

Tex has a great summary above. To me a "no firearms" sign on a business means something similar to a "no gas" sign at a gas station, or a "no vacancy" sign at a hotel / motel. It is simple English. The place in question does not have the thing that comes after the word "no". If I drive onto a gas station that has a sign saying "no gas", am I going to be arrested because there is some gas in the tank of my car? Or does that sign simply mean the same thing as a "no firearms" sign? That the gas station does not have any gas for sale at the moment?
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Re: Gun Buster Signs

#21

Post by Abraham » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:23 am

Ambiguity for all!


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Re: Gun Buster Signs

#22

Post by rotor » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:35 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:Tex has a great summary above. To me a "no firearms" sign on a business means something similar to a "no gas" sign at a gas station, or a "no vacancy" sign at a hotel / motel. It is simple English. The place in question does not have the thing that comes after the word "no". If I drive onto a gas station that has a sign saying "no gas", am I going to be arrested because there is some gas in the tank of my car? Or does that sign simply mean the same thing as a "no firearms" sign? That the gas station does not have any gas for sale at the moment?
Hopefully you never have to use that interpretation in court. Certainly very creative though.


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Re: Gun Buster Signs

#23

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:43 pm

rotor wrote:
Soccerdad1995 wrote:Tex has a great summary above. To me a "no firearms" sign on a business means something similar to a "no gas" sign at a gas station, or a "no vacancy" sign at a hotel / motel. It is simple English. The place in question does not have the thing that comes after the word "no". If I drive onto a gas station that has a sign saying "no gas", am I going to be arrested because there is some gas in the tank of my car? Or does that sign simply mean the same thing as a "no firearms" sign? That the gas station does not have any gas for sale at the moment?
Hopefully you never have to use that interpretation in court. Certainly very creative though.
I doubt I will ever have to. If anything, I will just need to refute the interpretation that the prosecutor tries to assign to the words "no ___". I do agree that it would be extremely creative to interpret "no gas", or "no firearms", or "no ties" to mean "no person who is in possession of ___ may enter these premises". It would be amusing to see a prosecutor attempt that type of legal gymnastics in court.
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Re: Gun Buster Signs

#24

Post by twomillenium » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:57 pm

Debate this all you want, the 30.06 & 30.07 signs or written on a card in the exact language given or oral notification to that person stating that that firearms or not allowed are the only notifications I teach and am concerned with. That is what the law says and that is what I was told when I took the instructors courses. Yes, I have heard an officer or two interpret this different but I just figured they are in the group that didn't learn how to tie their shoes until they were in their teens.
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Re: Gun Buster Signs

#25

Post by C-dub » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:34 pm

twomillenium wrote:Debate this all you want, the 30.06 & 30.07 signs or written on a card in the exact language given or oral notification to that person stating that that firearms or not allowed are the only notifications I teach and am concerned with. That is what the law says and that is what I was told when I took the instructors courses. Yes, I have heard an officer or two interpret this different but I just figured they are in the group that didn't learn how to tie their shoes until they were in their teens.
"rlol" Could be. Could be.
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Re: Gun Buster Signs

#26

Post by Abraham » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:44 pm

twomillenium.

You posted: "Debate this all you want, the 30.06 & 30.07 signs or written on a card in the exact language given..."

...written on a card?

By that do you mean a. the proprietor hands all who enter his business a 30/06 or 07 card b. has one simply taped at the entrance of the building?

Or what?

I'm confused.

If the proprietor was simply handing out 30.06/07 cards as each customer came in (without saying a word), I'd simply ignore them, properly worded or not. They aren't properly sized, worded and posted as signs as the law for such things are legally outlined.

If he however, verbally warned each and every customer to come through his door, guns weren't welcome in his establishment - then I'd do an abrupt about face.

Kindly clarify for this old, gray, dented noggin.

Thanks!

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Re: Gun Buster Signs

#27

Post by Pawpaw » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:56 pm

PC §30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. wrote:a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a concealed handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
(c) In this section:
(1) “Entry” has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).
(2) “License holder” has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).
(3) “Written communication” means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following:
“Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by license holder with a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (handgun licensing law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun”; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
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Re: Gun Buster Signs

#28

Post by Abraham » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:00 pm

Pawpaw,

Thanks!

Who knew?

Not me.

I always look for the sign or lack there of.

Can you and I don't expect you to know, but how does this card business work?

I've never seen a 30.06 card, sign yes, card never.

And thanks again.

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Re: Gun Buster Signs

#29

Post by rtschl » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:18 pm

Abraham wrote:Pawpaw,

Thanks!

Who knew?

Not me.

I always look for the sign or lack there of.

Can you and I don't expect you to know, but how does this card business work?

I've never seen a 30.06 card, sign yes, card never.

And thanks again.
I know of a couple people that said they hand the card with 30.07 if someone is OC at their church. They don't want the ugly sign but do not want OC at their church.
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Re: Gun Buster Signs

#30

Post by Abraham » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:30 pm

rtschl,

That's interesting, but I'm puzzled about the mechanics of someone printing (presumably) hand size cards with all the 30.06 wording and how they go about distributing them?

If I enter your business as a concealed carrier, am I supposed to grab a card, like folks who pick a number as the next customer in line when his number is called for service, or are they in a case outside the business and I'm encouraged to pick one up and read it before I go any further into the store....what the heck?

This approach sounds like nuttiness on a grand order or am I simply over looking everyone else but me knows the answer to...?

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