Lockdown-no crime

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Lockdown-no crime

Postby RPB » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:57 am

Police say no crime committed by men strolling through SE Portland neighborhood with assault rifles

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/inde ... d_car.html

By Everton Bailey Jr., The Oregonian
on January 09, 2013 at 5:02 PM, updated January 09, 2013 at 9:45 PM
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Re: Lockdown-no crime

Postby Moby » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:28 am

:nono:

When I see people doing things like this I often think a person should be 30+ years old
to get their CHL. Just because you CAN do something does not mean you SHOULD do it.
Yes, it's legal, but doing this kind of stunt only causes restrictive laws that affect all the rest of us.
IMO these acts are immature and only briing negativity to responsible firearms owners.

from the article
“We support everyone’s constitutional rights, but we ask that they exercise them responsibly,” he said. “Anyone walking around with a visible firearm is going to generate calls from concerned citizens that we have to respond to. That takes resources away from potentially more serious incidents.”
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Re: Lockdown-no crime

Postby 7075-T7 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:36 am

Moby wrote:When I see people doing things like this I often think a person should be 30+ years old
to get their CHL.


30+? :roll: Is that another magical age of maturity?
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Re: Lockdown-no crime

Postby texanjoker » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:37 am

:iagree:
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Re: Lockdown-no crime

Postby Pete92FS » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:43 am

You gotta use common sense. Idiots like that only bring more attention to the "evil black rifles" at a time we don't need it. :nono:
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Re: Lockdown-no crime

Postby A-R » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:43 pm

A friend lives in Portland and her young son's school went into lockdown because of this idiotic stunt. The parents were notified, and are obviously very upset. Just getting the message that the school was on lockdown because men were seen with guns was truly traumatic for the parents.

Based on suspect names given on news stories, cross referenced against some posts on various gun web sites, I'm fairly confident at least one of these guys regularly pulls these "open carry" stunts and posts videos of it on YouTube under user name "markedguardian".

Someone needs to explain to this idiot that he is seriously damaging the reputation of all gun owners and the cause of gun rights with these stupid stunts. Parents of children at that school who previously were on the fence in things like renewed AWB are now calling for it.

Way to go, moron! :banghead:

This guy and his stunts are just as bad for gun rights as Alex Jones and his ilk.

Furthermore, using Texas law as reference (no idea what Oregon law says on subject) if this idiot knowingly/ purposely open carried near that school at a time like this (with so many freaked and horrified over Newtoen massacre) I think he's dangerously close to a Disorderly Conduct charge (bye bye CHL)

Texas Penal Code 42.01.  DISORDERLY CONDUCT. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly:
(8)  displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;
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Re: Lockdown-no crime

Postby RottenApple » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:15 pm

So it's the fault of a pair of LAW ABIDING citizens who committed NO crime that the school was put in lockdown? I'm sorry, but I completely disagree. Frankly, it is the fault of the liberal media, liberal politicians, politicians who have no backbone, and today's PC culture.

I'm not saying that I would have done what these guys did. I agree that it was incredibly insensitive to go anywhere near a school while open carrying considering the recent shootings. But it is the school administrator's fault for alarming the parents without cause.

A-R wrote:
Texas Penal Code 42.01.  DISORDERLY CONDUCT. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly:
(8)  displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;


Carrying a rifle slung over your shoulder, even near a school, is hardly "in a manner calculated to alarm".
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Re: Lockdown-no crime

Postby Purplehood » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:18 pm

I think one of the very first things that many of us "Conservatives" (Yes, I loosely consider myself one at times) should do is completely eliminate the concept of Political Correctness.

The true definition of 'Political Correctness' is: Compliance with the will of the unwashed masses.
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Re: Lockdown-no crime

Postby RottenApple » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:27 pm

Purplehood wrote:I think one of the very first things that many of us "Conservatives" (Yes, I loosely consider myself one at times) should do is completely eliminate the concept of Political Correctness.

The true definition of 'Political Correctness' is: Compliance with the will of the unwashed masses.


:iagree:

And since I'm being politically incorrect today, I think that gun safety, familiarity, and handling should be taught to ALL children. If, when they grow up, they choose not to own and/or use firearms, then that's their right and their choice. But at least the irrational fear of guns will have been taken care of.
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Re: Lockdown-no crime

Postby A-R » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:31 pm

And how exactly are school administrators SUPPOSED to react when they see two young men (early 20s - same as last two mass murderers) with what from a distance certainly look like "automatic" weapons (especially to firearms novices) near the school?

This is one of those "no fault" situations all around that still leave the parents furious that they were put through an emotionally traumatic ordeal because someone decided to make a misguided political statement.

APPEARANCES MATTER! We are in the single most dangerous anti-gun social/political environment we've faced in more than a generation. It's not good enough right now to stick to the old standby "it's our right" and then blame others for not understanding how our rights trump social norms and parental fear (as irrational as it may be it's VERY real and continuing to provoke this fear WILL have dire consequences for gun rights if we don't back off a bit).

I'm not in any way saying we give up our rights. But as said earlier, just because you CAN does not mean you SHOULD.

These stunts may make this punk kid feel empowered, but at what cost to our rights moving forward?

As for the DC charge, easy to establish intent: (assuming for sake of proving how intent could be established) he wants more publicity, so decides to open carry near a school, figuring the alarm it will cause will gain him extra notoriety, more YouTube viewers etc. If he admits to this or his sidekick does, then I've just articulated the facts to support an arrest for DC.
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Re: Lockdown-no crime

Postby A-R » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:32 pm

RottenApple wrote:And since I'm being politically incorrect today, I think that gun safety, familiarity, and handling should be taught to ALL children. If, when they grow up, they choose not to own and/or use firearms, then that's their right and their choice. But at least the irrational fear of guns will have been taken care of.


:iagree:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to my death your right to say it."

above does not apply to Westboro's Baptist Church nor those who desecrate the US flag

I am NOT a lawyer
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Re: Lockdown-no crime

Postby A-R » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:38 pm

To understand my point you need to practice the "empathy" taught in the "dispute resolution" portion of the CHL class, or better yet go read "Verbal Judo" by George Thompson

You need to put yourself in the shoes of those parents, average folks without much knowledge of guns, gun rights etc. Their children matter to them. Your rights may be a distant second. We can discuss, educate, and show empathy and help win friends. Or we can throw up the flag of RIGHTS above all else and risk alienating average folks to the point they join the anti-gun movement.

"We do this to ourselves."
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to my death your right to say it."

above does not apply to Westboro's Baptist Church nor those who desecrate the US flag

I am NOT a lawyer
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Re: Lockdown-no crime

Postby RottenApple » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:41 pm

A-R wrote:And how exactly are school administrators SUPPOSED to react when they see two young men (early 20s - same as last two mass murderers) with what from a distance certainly look like "automatic" weapons (especially to firearms novices) near the school?

This is one of those "no fault" situations all around that still leave the parents furious that they were put through an emotionally traumatic ordeal because someone decided to make a misguided political statement.

APPEARANCES MATTER! We are in the single most dangerous anti-gun social/political environment we've faced in more than a generation. It's not good enough right now to stick to the old standby "it's our right" and then blame others for not understanding how our rights trump social norms and parental fear (as irrational as it may be it's VERY real and continuing to provoke this fear WILL have dire consequences for gun rights if we don't back off a bit).

I'm not in any way saying we give up our rights. But as said earlier, just because you CAN does not mean you SHOULD.

These stunts may make this punk kid feel empowered, but at what cost to our rights moving forward?

As for the DC charge, easy to establish intent: (assuming for sake of proving how intent could be established) he wants more publicity, so decides to open carry near a school, figuring the alarm it will cause will gain him extra notoriety, more YouTube viewers etc. If he admits to this or his sidekick does, then I've just articulated the facts to support an arrest for DC.


I'm not saying it wasn't foolish or insensitive to the current situation. But I refuse to blame someone someone who obeying and abiding by the law for the actions of a bunch of hopolophobes. As I said, I wouldn't have done it.

Interesting side note. In the spring and summer I typically carry openly (mostly because it can get so dang hot here and I'm working in the yard) on my property which is in a small sub-division. The only questions I've ever gotten were from the State Trooper who lives a few doors down and from a Constable who was delivering divorce papers to my neighbor across the street. In both cases the questions were "Is that a 1911?", "How do you like that Kimber?", "Mind if I hold it?", etc. Turns out the trooper down the street is a 1911 nut like me (Thanks, Pawpaw!) and I've even gotten together with the Constable once at GPSR where we shot each other's guns. G-d I love Texas!
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Re: Lockdown-no crime

Postby RottenApple » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:46 pm

A-R wrote:To understand my point you need to practice the "empathy" taught in the "dispute resolution" portion of the CHL class, or better yet go read "Verbal Judo" by George Thompson

You need to put yourself in the shoes of those parents, average folks without much knowledge of guns, gun rights etc. Their children matter to them. Your rights may be a distant second. We can discuss, educate, and show empathy and help win friends. Or we can throw up the flag of RIGHTS above all else and risk alienating average folks to the point they join the anti-gun movement.

"We do this to ourselves."


I have read Verbal Judo. Excellent book and I recommend it to everyone.

I don't blame the parents for being freaked out. All they got was a call/email/text message telling them there were armed men in the community and the school was locked down. Heck, *I* would have been freaked out by it. And yet if I had personally seen the men walking past the school, openly carrying their rifles (slung over their shoulder in an unalarming position), I wouldn't have called the police, locked down the school, etc. I would have keep an eye on them to make sure they just kept going and weren't "up to something", but I wouldn't have started a panic over it.

That being said, how can we overcome the irrational fear of guns in public unless...well...guns are seen in public?
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Re: Lockdown-no crime

Postby A-R » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:53 pm

RottenApple wrote:
A-R wrote: That being said, how can we overcome the irrational fear of guns in public unless...well...guns are seen in public?


I agree, but it's a question of time and place. Right way vs wrong way to accomplish the goal.

As for how you or I would've reacted to seeing same men with guns, that doesn't matter beyond what we hope to some day educate others to do. In the here and now it fails to show sufficient empathy to the traumatized parents.
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above does not apply to Westboro's Baptist Church nor those who desecrate the US flag

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