A Comment About Our Educational System

[VMI77]

It's not just your average kids going to college, it's kids that barely graduate high school. Plenty of schools out there that will take anyone as long as somebody (most of the time us) is footing the bill.

Looked at college admissions standards recently? You may catch a break if you're a minority or financially disadvantaged, but to get into a 4-year state school, they're not going to accept average students with average SAT scores. IF you've got a kid in the top 20% of his class and he doesn't do well above average on those SATs, getting into a state college like UT or A&M isn't going to be easy.

Nevermind paying for it...

Anyone can go to community college. That's absolutely true.

In fact, I've read that the top 10% pretty much fill up UT Austin every year, and that's one of the big reasons hearing what my son said about the quality of the students and some of the garbage being taught in the classroom is so scary.

[VMI77]

Another one, Sul Ross. They will practically pay kids to go there.

Sul Ross:
http://www.sulross.edu/page/2780/admiss ... t-freshman" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1) You get to go if you're in the top half of your class. No testing required.
2) Lower half of your class, you need to do 920 or better on the SAT.

That's the lowest I've ever seen...

If someone is in the lower half of their high school class, they're either an underachiever who spent all four years goofing around, or a rock is smarter than they are.

[MotherBear]

I have used singapore math.....maybe it works for some, but for a dyslexic student it was death on toast.

If you want a good system for visual/kinetic learners (kids that are distracted and figity) I highly reccomend Math-u-see. We have had brilliant success with that program.

That's exactly why there should be no federal standard, and methods should be decided locally by the school and school board.

Better yet, the schools should be able to evaluate students' learning styles and offer different options to suit different kids. Wouldn't that be something? Personally, I learned with Saxon math and it's what we're starting with. If at some point it stops working for us, we'll try something else. Seems like it shouldn't be impossible for the schools, at least the larger ones, to have a few different math classes using different methods and just funnel the kids into the methods that work best for them.

[VMI77]

I have used singapore math.....maybe it works for some, but for a dyslexic student it was death on toast.

If you want a good system for visual/kinetic learners (kids that are distracted and figity) I highly reccomend Math-u-see. We have had brilliant success with that program.

That's exactly why there should be no federal standard, and methods should be decided locally by the school and school board.

Better yet, the schools should be able to evaluate students' learning styles and offer different options to suit different kids. Wouldn't that be something? Personally, I learned with Saxon math and it's what we're starting with. If at some point it stops working for us, we'll try something else. Seems like it shouldn't be impossible for the schools, at least the larger ones, to have a few different math classes using different methods and just funnel the kids into the methods that work best for them.

I agree. I didn't use any particular system to teach math, but books like "Math for the Millions." Funny thing is, my oldest liked math the least and had no desire to teach, and is now underemployed as a math tutor. Unlike me, from what I hear, he apparently makes a good teacher. My boss told me that one of the mothers whose child goes to her private school said she heard the math tutor at the local Sylvan was a genius with kids (talking about my son). Me, I suck as a teacher and can't relate to little kids.

[Cedar Park Dad]

You know what as long as every job I see paying more than 40k says "bachelors degree required" I think we had better have universities willing to take those of us who are average.

Y'all are fighting a battle that was lost 40 years ago. If the price of admission to most middle class jobs is going to be a Bachelors degree then we need to find more effective ways of obtaining the degree without uber levels of debt.

Mrs Anygun has been a nurse for 40 years. SHe has her ADRN which she worked for in the early 1980s.

The hospital where she works was bought out by a large system. They told the nurses they were making the hospital a magna(?) program so everyone has to get their bachelor's degree. She told them "Okay". She is retiring with me on June 27th. No degree. Yay!

The expectation that everyone can get or needs a bachelors degree is unrealistic and is the same logic as zero tolerance.

Anygunanywhere

Of course its unrealistic and unneeded. But if you can't get a job without one, so what?

[mamabearCali]

You know what as long as every job I see paying more than 40k says "bachelors degree required" I think we had better have universities willing to take those of us who are average.

Y'all are fighting a battle that was lost 40 years ago. If the price of admission to most middle class jobs is going to be a Bachelors degree then we need to find more effective ways of obtaining the degree without uber levels of debt.

Mrs Anygun has been a nurse for 40 years. SHe has her ADRN which she worked for in the early 1980s.

The hospital where she works was bought out by a large system. They told the nurses they were making the hospital a magna(?) program so everyone has to get their bachelor's degree. She told them "Okay". She is retiring with me on June 27th. No degree. Yay!

The expectation that everyone can get or needs a bachelors degree is unrealistic and is the same logic as zero tolerance.

Anygunanywhere

I think it is baloney too! Don't get me wrong. But my husband has basically been told get your degree or don't progress anymore in your career. So he is finishing his degree in criminal justice.....so that he can check off a box. It is ridiculous, it is baloney, but it is required. We are 33 so we can't retire anytime soon. So the box will be checked off and he can move on.

He is doing so for less than 3k. So it could be worse.

[MotherBear]

That's exactly why there should be no federal standard, and methods should be decided locally by the school and school board.

Better yet, the schools should be able to evaluate students' learning styles and offer different options to suit different kids. Wouldn't that be something? Personally, I learned with Saxon math and it's what we're starting with. If at some point it stops working for us, we'll try something else. Seems like it shouldn't be impossible for the schools, at least the larger ones, to have a few different math classes using different methods and just funnel the kids into the methods that work best for them.

I agree. I didn't use any particular system to teach math, but books like "Math for the Millions." Funny thing is, my oldest liked math the least and had no desire to teach, and is now underemployed as a math tutor. Unlike me, from what I hear, he apparently makes a good teacher. My boss told me that one of the mothers whose child goes to her private school said she heard the math tutor at the local Sylvan was a genius with kids (talking about my son). Me, I suck as a teacher and can't relate to little kids.

Good for him! I dislike math and always have, but I've learned that if I stick with it I'll come to a point where it suddenly clicks. And then I still won't like it, but at least it'll be easy. I had to take a math course in college and wound up tutoring someone. Pretty sure my parents fell over laughing when they heard that, having dragged me kicking and screaming through math for years. But I'd learned how to stick with it and learn, and because I had to keep going at it different ways until it worked for me I was decent at explaining it in different ways until I found what worked for someone else. I wasn't planning on tutoring, but a girl sitting next to me was really struggling and saw my grades and talked me into it. At the end of the semester, the professor told me if journalism didn't work out for me, she thought I'd make a good math major. Definitely not a route that interested me, but it was nice to hear that I was that successful in overcoming what had always been a challenge for me.

To stay on the subject (is there a subject of this thread anymore??), I think there's a lot to be said for teaching kids that they can try approaching things differently. If this doesn't make sense, back off and come around from another side and see how it looks from there. Keep trying, don't give up. There's always another way. And no, I don't mean that the fundamentals change, but sometimes a different angle of approach makes all the difference. It's interesting to me when public school teachers comment to me that they can't imagine having to teach all the subjects and grade levels. That's not so difficult: when you've got one teacher and only a few students, a lot of it can be fit together more efficiently. What I couldn't do is teach so many kids with such different needs the same thing using the same method all at once.

[cb1000rider]

I'm talking about both private and public universities. If a high school graduate wants to go to a 4 year university, they can. End of story. It may not be one you would apply to, but there are a ton of them out there.

JMRA, I think what I disagree with is: "It's not just your average kids going to college, it's kids that barely graduate high school. "

Most colleges won't accept kids that barely graduate in the last quarter of their class. I agree you can find a for-profit 4-year to take them. Any community college will take them. Are there really state schools that accept the lowest ranked people that "barely graduated" ? I guess I don't know, but in the schools that I looked up, they don't meet entrance requirements and would need to get in by some other means. You're right -there are probably alternatives, but it sure doesn't look like getting into college with crappy class rank is easy.

State schools - less than half of their funding comes from tuition. Are there state schools that have lower than capacity enrollment? It looks like many schools in Texas are at record enrollment, so their selection process gets more selective, not less.

[cb1000rider]

I think it is baloney too! Don't get me wrong. But my husband has basically been told get your degree or don't progress anymore in your career. So he is finishing his degree in criminal justice.....so that he can check off a box. It is ridiculous, it is baloney, but it is required. We are 33 so we can't retire anytime soon. So the box will be checked off and he can move on.

He is doing so for less than 3k. So it could be worse.

I've always said that a degree is a license that shows you're capable of learning and a little bit of self-disipline. I knew a lot more engineering and math is school than I've managed to retain these days..

Your husband is being penalized $3k for not checking off that box. Most people without degrees are being penalized a lot more, as they're not even allowed to interview for jobs that they're very capable of doing. I bet that was true in his case too.

I've worked at a few big companies where pay is directly related to educational check boxes and not necessarily related at all to performance. It's sorta silly.

The closer you can move to entrepreneurial businesses, I've found that it matters less. However, I'm going to strongly kick my child's butt towards getting a degree, as it affords such unfair advantages...

[VMI77]

I think it is baloney too! Don't get me wrong. But my husband has basically been told get your degree or don't progress anymore in your career. So he is finishing his degree in criminal justice.....so that he can check off a box. It is ridiculous, it is baloney, but it is required. We are 33 so we can't retire anytime soon. So the box will be checked off and he can move on.

He is doing so for less than 3k. So it could be worse.

I've always said that a degree is a license that shows you're capable of learning and a little bit of self-disipline. I knew a lot more engineering and math is school than I've managed to retain these days..

Your husband is being penalized $3k for not checking off that box. Most people without degrees are being penalized a lot more, as they're not even allowed to interview for jobs that they're very capable of doing. I bet that was true in his case too.

I've worked at a few big companies where pay is directly related to educational check boxes and not necessarily related at all to performance. It's sorta silly.

The closer you can move to entrepreneurial businesses, I've found that it matters less. However, I'm going to strongly kick my child's butt towards getting a degree, as it affords such unfair advantages...

Degrees haven't helped my sons find regular employment. In fact, they may have actually hurt, as it seems some employers don't want to hire someone who can leave for something better. Both graduated with honors. The one employed part time tutoring math....yes, he wouldn't even have that job without the degree...but he's got a four year degree in biology and associate degrees in history, English, and nuclear technology. He's been looking for over two years and applied for many jobs that don't even require a degree. Smart personable kid but hiring is anything but egalitarian --it's all who you know. And btw, where he tutors there are a number of public school teachers that have been laid off and can only find part time work....young ones of course, cut after teaching for one or two years. The youngest is attending the nation's 4th highest ranked law school on full scholarship, and he, and the majority of his classmates, cannot find employment. Very few people in his class have gotten job offers and those that have were not selected on the basis of academic merit.

[cb1000rider]

VM,
Sorry your kids haven't found solid work. I had friend with a degree in biology and bio-chemistry (undergrad) - same boat, employment was tough. She eventually switched to technology, which largely was an advantage afforded to her by who she knew rather than what she knew.

Geology buddy, same deal... Meaningful employment for a geology undergrad was tough until oil and gas kicked back in.

I know we've passed on obviously well educated people that didn't seem to have a focus on our business - exactly for the reason you mentioned - flight risk if the resume wasn't focused enough. I'm not saying that those were good calls. It does happen.

As you mentioned, it's not like you can fall back to teaching anymore. Teaching is competitive now and still vastly underpaid.

It'll be a tough call advising my kids to study what they're interested in while in college versus studying what will keep them employed. I think it's horrible to say that. High employment prospects (in Texas) seem to be petroleum engineering, computer science, computer engineering, and a few other side branches of engineering that can land technology jobs.

I guess I feel lucky.

[VMI77]

VM,
Sorry your kids haven't found solid work. I had friend with a degree in biology and bio-chemistry (undergrad) - same boat, employment was tough. She eventually switched to technology, which largely was an advantage afforded to her by who she knew rather than what she knew.

Geology buddy, same deal... Meaningful employment for a geology undergrad was tough until oil and gas kicked back in.

I know we've passed on obviously well educated people that didn't seem to have a focus on our business - exactly for the reason you mentioned - flight risk if the resume wasn't focused enough. I'm not saying that those were good calls. It does happen.

As you mentioned, it's not like you can fall back to teaching anymore. Teaching is competitive now and still vastly underpaid.

It'll be a tough call advising my kids to study what they're interested in while in college versus studying what will keep them employed. I think it's horrible to say that. High employment prospects (in Texas) seem to be petroleum engineering, computer science, computer engineering, and a few other side branches of engineering that can land technology jobs.

I guess I feel lucky.

I advised mine to study what they were interested in and it's looking like a mistake. If he'd majored in engineering I could have helped him. He was on track to work at the South Texas Nuclear Project. They selected him for a training program, paid him a stipend, and paid for an associate's degree in nuclear technology. Then, right when he and several others completed the training program, the San Onofre plant in California shut down and the STNP filled all their vacancies with San Onofre layoffs and threw all their trainees under the bus. I don't know for sure, but I suspect it was due to union seniority rules.

BTW, when he was competing to get into that training program, most of the other candidates were recent college graduates that couldn't find full time employment anywhere, much less in their field of study. One guy told him that his entire business graduating class was either unemployed or working part time as waiters and waitresses. He interviewed for a number of technical positions that didn't require a four year science degree and at every interview there were recent graduates like him looking for anything they could get. He talked to someone at Texas Parks and Wildlife who told him he'd be wasting his time applying because he'd be competing against people with master's degrees and five to ten years experience.

Edited to add:

Oh, and here's something else stupid about our educational system. He worked tutoring college students in English when he was in college, hired by the head of the English department, but he can't tutor elementary, middle school, or high school students in English because he's not a certified teacher. He can however teach a SAT class and he can tutor math even though his degree is in biology. And while it has nothing to do with the education system, he found himself tutoring an adult in electric circuits for a test he needed to advance where he worked, but he himself couldn't get a job there even though he was tutoring one of their employees.....which the guy he was tutoring thought was a little nuts.

[mojo84]

Are those issues with the public education system or the economic conditions of our country at the moment? Here's a suggestion, have them go where the jobs are and apply. People with high school educations are going to the Eagle Ford area of Texas and North Dakota and making $100,000+. It's not the public schools' fault college grads can't find jobs in their preferred chosen fields.


Since when does going to college and studying a chosen field entitle someone a job in that field. Maybe they need to do what the foreign engineer students are doing, move to a country where people in their chosen field are needed.

[VMI77]

Are those issues with the public education system or the economic conditions of our country at the moment? Here's a suggestion, have them go where the jobs are and apply. People with high school educations are going to the Eagle Ford area of Texas and North Dakota and making $100,000+. It's not the public schools' fault college grads can't find jobs in their preferred chosen fields.

I'm not saying it is the fault of the public schools. In the case of my kids it's not even possible because they didn't go to public school.....if it's the fault of anything but the economy it would be the colleges taking money and turning out graduates that can't get a job with their degree. And he has applied to jobs all over the country...he's even applied to the TSA.....not because he wants to work for the TSA but hoping to move within the government once he's eligible. My youngest is pretty ticked at not finding employment with a law degree from the 4th highest ranked law school in the nation. Fortunately, since the same results are occurring at 3rd ranked Harvard, where he would have owed about $250K in student loans, he chose to take the full scholarship, so he's getting his degree for free (not counting opportunity costs). Still, it's three years in law school with nothing to show for it.

[mojo84]

Here's something for folks to get up in arms about.

TheBlaze: They Just Announced Major Changes to the SAT…and There’s a Tie to Common Core. http://google.com/producer/s/CBIw4rupvxk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;