LA: Alton Shering Shot by LEO

[NTexCopRetired]

Unless it has change in the last 10 years, the LTC is attached to the 10-27 (drivers license record) and not the 10-28 (car registration). If that is still the case, and I think it is, the officer does not know your LTC status until they run the 10-27.

One of the things you are taught to watch for is the amount of activity in the passenger compartment. If there is a lot of movement, opening glove compartment or console etc, that is a red flag. I recommend pulling over, turning on the interior light if at night, keeping both hands on the wheel and making the verbal statements in Beiruty's post. Do not exit the vehicle unless the officer direct you to do so. Let the officer tell you what they want you to do so there is no confusion. You may be instructed to do something you don't feel like you should do but at least you won't get shot. The object is for everyone to go home without damage.

The most difficult situation is when there are more than one officer and they both are giving commands. Officers that are trained properly will not do that. One will always take the lead.

[flechero]

Why do large departments continue to pair up white officers? Seem like this is routine and always ends up in a racial spin... if they paired a black and white office, that would eliminate the initial speculation that it HAD to be a racially motivated shooting.

[DevilDawg]

Newer reports by senior BR LEO state that a 911 call came in with regards to Alton brandishing a firearm in front of the store leading up to this confrontation. This young man had an escalating rap sheet most recently to include resisting officers while illegally carrying a firearm, drugs, unauthorized CD's and failure to register as a sex offender.

I am not giving the officers a pass on this because I find it too convenient that both body cams "fell off and quit working". However Alton seems to have known the price for resisting and chose fighting over peaceful surrender.

I would like to say that I have faith that the DOJ will do a thorough investigation and get to the truth, however that seems unlikely given the results of recent Tarmac meetings by Lynch.

[NTexCopRetired]

flintknapper - I completely understand your perspective on this but those "creeds" are intended for two different audiences. The first is obviously intended for the "bad guys". The second is intended for everyone. Peace Officers are duty bound to protect all persons, including those that break the law. They are also prepared to meet resistance from the "bad guys" when necessary. "If today is to be THE DAY, so be it." sets the tone of the first creed. Whether today is THE DAY or not is up to the "bad guy", not the peace officer. (Yes, there are exceptions)

In our daily lives, we meet up with mostly good people. A peace officer meets them all on a daily basis. A lot of the time, they are sent to meet the bad guys because of the second creed ""As a law enforcement officer, my fundamental duty is to serve mankind; to safeguard lives and property, to protect the innocent against deception, the weak against oppression or intimidation, and the peaceful against violence or disorder; "

[vjallen75]

Newer reports by senior BR LEO state that a 911 call came in with regards to Alton brandishing a firearm in front of the store leading up to this confrontation. This young man had an escalating rap sheet most recently to include resisting officers while illegally carrying a firearm, drugs, unauthorized CD's and failure to register as a sex offender.

I am not giving the officers a pass on this because I find it too convenient that both body cams "fell off and quit working". However Alton seems to have known the price for resisting and chose fighting over peaceful surrender.

I would like to say that I have faith that the DOJ will do a thorough investigation and get to the truth, however that seems unlikely given the results of recent Tarmac meetings by Lynch.

I did read that later on in the day yesterday. SOME people do bring bad upon themselves due to their own actions. I would like to know what happened before they brought him to the ground, nobody ever posts the things that happened before.

[vjallen75]

Unless it has change in the last 10 years, the LTC is attached to the 10-27 (drivers license record) and not the 10-28 (car registration). If that is still the case, and I think it is, the officer does not know your LTC status until they run the 10-27.

One of the things you are taught to watch for is the amount of activity in the passenger compartment. If there is a lot of movement, opening glove compartment or console etc, that is a red flag. I recommend pulling over, turning on the interior light if at night, keeping both hands on the wheel and making the verbal statements in Beiruty's post. Do not exit the vehicle unless the officer direct you to do so. Let the officer tell you what they want you to do so there is no confusion. You may be instructed to do something you don't feel like you should do but at least you won't get shot. The object is for everyone to go home without damage.

The most difficult situation is when there are more than one officer and they both are giving commands. Officers that are trained properly will not do that. One will always take the lead.

Thanks for clarification, I was about to ask if any LEOs on the forum had any advice on what is the best way to handle this situation.

[vjallen75]

I found this on another article:

Castile is at least the 506th person shot and killed by police so far in 2016, according to a Washington Post database that tracks such shootings.

He is one of 123 black Americans shot and killed by police so far in 2016, according to the database. About 10 percent of the black Americans shot and killed were unarmed at the time of the shooting, while about 61 percent were armed with a gun.

Note: Philando Castile is the LTC holder shot by a LEO in Minnesota

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/minn-c ... id=DELLDHP

[steveincowtown]

Quite a convenient change to the new cycle for the Crooked Hillary, don't you think?

Oh the MSM, back at again with those fresh stories.

[pushpullpete]

Just curious, is there a reason that some of y'all do not have all necessary documents (DL, LTC, and Insurance) ready to go when the officer arrives at your window? Not calling anyone out, just curious.

Things may have changed over time but, I learned many many moons ago. Shut off your engine & put your keys on the dash with hands THRU the steering wheel, fingers laced and do as you're instructed. After informing the officer that I have a chl I ask them how they want me to proceed. I then explain and exagerate EVERY move I make. I don't 'fumble around' as someone said, all necessary papers are in my left front pocket & are retrieved when the officer oks it. To be fair, I have cops in the family both blood & not, so I tend to maybe look at them a little differently than most.
edit: "most" in reference to the general population not members here.

[Bryanmc]

When I was working (and since I've retired) ANY time I had an official contact with LE (traffic stop or whatever) I always notified them I was armed immediately and always carried my wallet / creds opposite my weapon. If I have time, when the lights come on I'll take my wallet out (right front pocket) and put it on the dash so there's no digging around when they get to the window, roll down the front windows and turn on the interior light at night.

As far as yelling gun during a contact, anytime you see a weapon on someone not known to be LE, you call it out, no waiting for it to be drawn or pointed.

[pushpullpete]

roll down the front windows and turn on the interior light at night.

Agreed, I should have added that I do that as well.

[flintknapper]

flintknapper - I completely understand your perspective on this but those "creeds" are intended for two different audiences. The first is obviously intended for the "bad guys". The second is intended for everyone. Peace Officers are duty bound to protect all persons, including those that break the law. They are also prepared to meet resistance from the "bad guys" when necessary. "If today is to be THE DAY, so be it." sets the tone of the first creed. Whether today is THE DAY or not is up to the "bad guy", not the peace officer. (Yes, there are exceptions)

In our daily lives, we meet up with mostly good people. A peace officer meets them all on a daily basis. A lot of the time, they are sent to meet the bad guys because of the second creed ""As a law enforcement officer, my fundamental duty is to serve mankind; to safeguard lives and property, to protect the innocent against deception, the weak against oppression or intimidation, and the peaceful against violence or disorder; "

OK, I can appreciate that. But how many academies/agencies are teaching BOTH creeds? What if new recruits are only getting the first one thrown at them. I understand the need to be able to conjure up the 'warrior spirit' when needed, I really do. But I also believe many LEO are being taught to think that everyone is out to kill them if they let down their 'guard' in the slightest.

I have to wonder if this doesn't (in some cases) result in shootings where the officer interprets a quite normal and innocent move/action...to be 'furtive'.

We don't have all the facts...but on the face of it...it doesn't appear that the guy in Minnesota ( http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/minn-c ... id=DELLDHP) had any intention of doing 'battle' with the officer. (If you seek to do battle with me this day you will receive the best that I am capable of giving.)

I have serious doubts this was a 'bad guy' bringing it to the officer. Maybe its with good reason, but it seems there is no small number of LEO who are really nervous about their job. This can result in guns being un-holstered when perhaps it isn't necessary.

The mere presence of a gun (by someone other than LEO) shouldn't so excite everyone that mistakes are made. Instead, evaluate what is being done (or not done) with the weapon. If you are so afraid you 'won't go home' that you make sure you get the drop on the other guy first (better safe than sorry), then another line of work might be best for everyone.

As for the guy in Louisiana, if he didn't have a recognizable weapon in hand but was only struggling with the officers (who were on top of him), why was the response to shoot him (5 times)?

I recognize the difficulty of the job and greatly appreciate those who choose to do it. I am however concerned that things have changed drastically (between LEO and the citizenry) from what I remember growing up. Not all of it....good.

So...what has changed? Society, training, both?

[talltex]

flintknapper - I completely understand your perspective on this but those "creeds" are intended for two different audiences. The first is obviously intended for the "bad guys". The second is intended for everyone. Peace Officers are duty bound to protect all persons, including those that break the law. They are also prepared to meet resistance from the "bad guys" when necessary. "If today is to be THE DAY, so be it." sets the tone of the first creed. Whether today is THE DAY or not is up to the "bad guy", not the peace officer. (Yes, there are exceptions)

In our daily lives, we meet up with mostly good people. A peace officer meets them all on a daily basis. A lot of the time, they are sent to meet the bad guys because of the second creed ""As a law enforcement officer, my fundamental duty is to serve mankind; to safeguard lives and property, to protect the innocent against deception, the weak against oppression or intimidation, and the peaceful against violence or disorder; "

I disagree...the first is something an instructor at that particular academy came up with, and reflects his viewpoints and is intended to instill in the recruits a "Warrior" mentality. I suspect he has a long list of credentials going back to his service in the military and is a former or current member of a SWAT unit. That creed is designed to "fire them up" and give them a strong self image. That's not necessarily bad, but every individual is different and it can also instill the "us against them" attitude that has become much more prevalent in all aspects of Law Enforcement over the last 30 years. For some of the recruits it justifies a very aggressive behavior pattern in which they seem to look for a reason to take physical action at any provocation. I have several close friends in the LEO community in my county...a couple I graduated from high school with in 1974. I worked for two years in the Sheriff's Dept. while going to college. I've talked with my friends and they see and hear the same things I've noticed. There is a huge difference in the attitude of the LEO's in their mid 40's and older vs. the young guys in their 20's-30's. The young ones (most of them) want to be part of the SWAT/SRT units and they make posts on social media about putting their lives on the line everyday and making it back home another day. The older guys just shake their heads when they see and hear that. The second creed is the way you were taught back then. Not formally...but by watching the veterans and how they handled people and themselves. They viewed there job as "taking care" of the local folks and would go out of their way to avoid having to cuff someone and take them to jail. I know times have changed, and there is a huge difference in patrolling in Baton Rouge and a rural Texas county, but there are just way too many incidents occurring regularly now that should not happen. I haven't watched the video in question but I've seen numerous examples in the last few years that make me cringe.

[NTexCopRetired]

flintknapper - I attended one academy and we had a creed like the second one you mentioned. I also taught classes in two other academies and they did also. I have no experience outside those three. But those academies also taught survival tactics and stress the point to recruits that "if they let down their 'guard' in the slightest" they may not survive. You always assume the worst and hope for the best. You seem to be saying an officer cannot do both. I disagree. Some are better than others at accomplishing it. I cannot comment on these latest events. I wasn't there.

I find it interesting that you say "If you are so afraid you 'won't go home' that you make sure you get the drop on the other guy first (better safe than sorry), then another line of work might be best for everyone". I hear similar things said about LTC holders. "If you are too afraid to leave your house without a gun, you should stay home". I don't think that is a true statement either. My objective every time I leave my house is to return safely.

[NTexCopRetired]

talltex - I appreciate what you say but it is just another perspective. I was in law enforcement from 1969 until 2003. Creed #2 has always been around in some form. The essence of Creed #1 has always been taught as a matter of survival, formally in the training classes and informally on the street. The attitudes of officers are always about the same. Year 1-3: I want to learn everything, get into everything, do everything. Year 4-10: I know everything, I have done everything, I can stop anything. Year 10-plus: Don't tell me anything, let's handle this with the least amount of paperwork, how long till retirement. It hasn't changed much in all these years. It is the age of the person not the age the person lives in, that makes the difference. We do live in a time where everyone is a reporter and has the means to record and communicate live, on the scene. We hear about things more often and sooner. Yes there are a lot of bad incidents but the ratio of bad incidents to the number of unreported, good incidents is still very low.