Batons ..

[glockfan22]

After carrying for a year or so I was also wondering about the legallity of carrying handcuffs and other forms of weapons. To this end I reviewed texas's laws on the matter and I found it to be lacking as far as batons where concearned. I found it odd that I could carry a knife and firearm but not a baton. I did some looking and could not find a particular reason why other than it was listed as a illegal club. But note as I said before we carry knives and firearms, tasers, oc/mace/pepper spray and kubatons, defense pens, but not a baton. I did fire off an email to my state reps and asked them to introduce a bill to include legal carry of a baton if you had a chl and I would ask that others do the same. Because to me it does not make sense! If someone out here has a reasonable answer as to why we as legal holders of firearms cannot carry one please respond.

[cheezit]

carry a cane / walking stick IMO anyway.

[WildBill]

After carrying for a year or so I was also wondering about the legallity of carrying handcuffs and other forms of weapons. Because to me it does not make sense! If someone out here has a reasonable answer as to why we as legal holders of firearms cannot carry one please respond.

Sometimes many laws don't seem to make much "sense". I think that, historically, most of the illegal weapon laws are anachronistic laws which originated from prejudice towards certain groups of people. Since most "middle class" people don't ordinarily carry or use such weapons, the laws have remained on the books.

[glockfan22]

guess i could use a cane but since i am younger that cause someone to eye me with suspicion or make me a possible target since i could be viewed as being "infirm". But thats just my $.02

[WildBill]

guess i could use a cane but since i am younger that cause someone to eye me with suspicion or make me a possible target since i could be viewed as being "infirm". But thats just my $.02

Why would you want to carry a baton when you carry your CHL handgun?

[ScottDLS]

After carrying for a year or so I was also wondering about the legallity of carrying handcuffs and other forms of weapons. To this end I reviewed texas's laws on the matter and I found it to be lacking as far as batons where concearned. I found it odd that I could carry a knife and firearm but not a baton. I did some looking and could not find a particular reason why other than it was listed as a illegal club. But note as I said before we carry knives and firearms, tasers, oc/mace/pepper spray and kubatons, defense pens, but not a baton. I did fire off an email to my state reps and asked them to introduce a bill to include legal carry of a baton if you had a chl and I would ask that others do the same. Because to me it does not make sense! If someone out here has a reasonable answer as to why we as legal holders of firearms cannot carry one please respond.

I believe a "baton" designed for self-defense would fall into the 46.01 definition of a club. So 46.02, unlawful carrying of a weapon. would apply. Now some have made the argument that you could carry a club AND a handgun, because 46.15 says:

(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
...
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued
under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a
concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person
is carrying;
...

Note, it says 46.02 doesn't apply...therefore the 46.02 prohibition of carrying a club doesn't apply if you meet 46.15(b)(6). Meaning if you're also carrying a handgun. I really would not want to try this out though. One of the few areas where I don't want to be the proverbial "test case".

[flintknapper]

guess i could use a cane but since i am younger that cause someone to eye me with suspicion or make me a possible target since i could be viewed as being "infirm". But thats just my $.02

Why would you want to carry a baton when you carry your CHL handgun?

Several reasons:

1. You can can carry a cane/kubotan/yawara stick (baton IF they were legal) many places that a firearm is not allowed. That way....you'd have some form of defense.

2. Any of the "sticks" mentioned can be used as "less lethal" devices or even compliance tools, hard to do that with a firearm.

3. Less expensive than a firearm...and at present, no requirement to conceal.

[glockfan22]

someone also asked me the question at my job after I posted this and this is just my opinion as to why I feel this way on the subject ... so why use a baton vs using my gun? as many of us chl holders are aware, and if your not please become aware, the use of force in this state does not give us the right to use deadly force! There are conditions that in accordance to and with the law that MUST be met before we use our "equalizer". To this end it is my opinion that a baton when used correctly would be better in a self defense role when the attacker is unarmed ie - fists only. A strike to a non-vital area such as the arm or leg would be a mobility nuetralizer (i dont wish to include the word "kill" due to our litigious society) in order to stop a would be attacker. Also there are holds and chokes that can also be applied with the batons that are in my opinion valid in self defense situations. As a carry holder I do not think a firearm is the best defensive tool for all situations. There's an old tool analogy - if you only have a hammer; then that makes everything a nail. It does not work because sometimes we just need a screw driver. Like I said just my opinion .

[Liberty]

Application of a baton or cane could be considered deadly force.

[WildBill]

Application of a baton or cane could be considered deadly force.

To this end it is my opinion that a baton when used correctly would be better in a self defense role when the attacker is unarmed ie - fists only.

"Fists only" can be considered deadly force.

After carrying for a year or so I was also wondering about the legallity of carrying handcuffs and other forms of weapons.

Handcuffs are not a prohibited weapon.

But note as I said before we carry knives and firearms, tasers, oc/mace/pepper spray and kubatons, defense pens, but not a baton.

Correct, certain knives, tasers, oc/mace/pepper spray and defense pens are viable legal options. Batons are not. IMO, knives are deadly weapons, the same as handguns. You have a large choice of options other than a baton.

carry a cane / walking stick IMO anyway.

You can buy some really snazzy looking canes that would work well for defending yourself against an assailant.

Less expensive than a firearm...and at present, no requirement to conceal.

The OP already has a Glock 22. You are correct that legally he wouldn't have to conceal a walking stick, but that would be hard to do anyway.

[ELB]

Handguns are not magic and not a one-size-fits-all solution.

There is a huge red herring being dragged around here in trying to equate canes, clubs, and fists, and feet (hereafter shortened to "CCFF") with guns as "deadly force." CCFFs can be used to inflict deadly force, certainly, but the are not in and of themselves deadly force. A gun is always a deadly force instrument.

For example, I can rap you smartly on the shin with my cane, kick you in the groin with my foot, punch you in the stomach with my fist, or smack you on the elbow with my club, and good luck trying to argue that was deadly force without some other huge factor(s) involved, like disparity of size, being an invalid, you fell over and hit your head, etc. Even then, it is not a sure thing.

But I shoot you in anyone of those same places, there is no question of deadly force.

I am aware of the people who have been punched and killed -- I have posted examples of these myself. But these are not the norm in punching incidents, and in both cases that I posted there was significant disparity in the size of the opponents, AND someone actually died. In that case of the gal and guy arguing over a parking spot, if she had not hit her head on the ground and died from the resulting head injury, but had only gotten a bloody nose or a broken jaw, it would be a much different case. Had he shot her with a gun and she survived, he would be looking at some form of attempted murder.

Two guys of similar build age, etc, squaring off and pummeling each other? Unless someone dies, then some form of assault. Same two guys with one or two guns between them -- big step up on the force continuum. If you get punched or are about to get punched and decide to shoot the puncher, at least have the cunning to fall over and go into a coma for awhile -- give your lawyer something to work with.

Back to the canes, etc. As flintknapper pointed out, CCFF type stuff can go a lot of places that guns can't (canes on airliners for example), and the level of force can be adjusted. Not everyone out there is necessarily trying to kill you, and if you are solely depending on your "awareness" and your gun to protect you, you have a big gap in your defenses. OC helps, but it is not fool proof either. Now, a spritz of OC and a rap in the goodies with your cane would probably do wonders to discourage an obstreperous aggressor who hasn't crossed into "imminent danger and all that..." yet.

I am not sure I would really carry around an actual club, but after I get some more knife training in, I would like to expand to canes...

[Mike1951]

guess i could use a cane but since i am younger that cause someone to eye me with suspicion or make me a possible target since i could be viewed as being "infirm". But thats just my $.02

Why would you want to carry a baton when you carry your CHL handgun?

Several reasons:

1. You can can carry a cane/kubotan/yawara stick (baton IF they were legal) many places that a firearm is not allowed. That way....you'd have some form of defense.

2. Any of the "sticks" mentioned can be used as "less lethal" devices or even compliance tools, hard to do that with a firearm.

3. Less expensive than a firearm...and at present, no requirement to conceal.

I think that either by intent or accident, the 46.02 exclusion does now technically allow carry of the other listed weapons, including clubs. HOWEVER, I'm not going to push it.

When I had cause to own, and sometimes carry, batons, I owned two. One was solid polymer and relatively heavy. The other was hollow aluminum. Both were probably 26-28 inches long. I did, at the minimum, attend a 20 hour TCLEOSE class on their use. Not once during this class, was their use as a club taught. Many techniques using them as leverage were taught as well as many wrist flick type impacts which were painful but did not cause serious damage. Shins and forearms were common targets. I exited law enforcement prior to the introduction of the extending batons, but it seems they would be excellent for these techniques.

My biggest issue with advocating their widespread use is the common misconception of the 'club' use. If everyone understood that use as a club should be very near a last resort, I would be much more comfortable advocating their carry.

My next opinion will be very controversial, but here goes. I would like to see the code clarified to make the carry of EXTENDING BATONS ONLY legal but only after attending a REQUIRED TRAINING COURSE. I think required training is much more appropriate for a baton than it is for handguns. It is necessary for the baton user to learn proper use and RESTRAINT. I think billy clubs, saps, and older style batons like the ones I owned should be, if they are now (questionably), illegal. It is simply too easy for someone to use only as a club.

For now, I have my cane and then my .38.

Opinions?

[gigag04]

Batons are a poor choice for intermediate weapon systems.

[flintknapper]

"WildBill" wrote:

You are correct that legally he wouldn't have to conceal a walking stick, but that would be hard to do anyway.

Yes, as would cane, so obviously the reply was in reference to a "Baton" (if they were legal) and the Kubotan/Yawara or Koppo sticks some of us carry.

And as someone already noted, all of those things CAN be lethal, as well as your feet, hands, or even a rolled up magazine (if you know what you are doing).

[pbwalker]

After carrying for a year or so I was also wondering about the legallity of carrying handcuffs...

What would you carry handcuffs for?