TSRA support of Texas Open Carry

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jecsd1
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Re: TSRA support of Texas Open Carry

Postby jecsd1 » Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:14 am

Here's a question that I haven't seemed to find an answer to in this thread of the search.

Charles, what events need to unfold for TSRA to make OC one of it's goals for this or any future legislative session? How does TSRA poll it's members on topics important to them? Is there an annual survey or something similar. I'm a new member so I'm unsure.

Please don't mistake the inquiries as ungrateful because I am most definetly not. I, and I think most of us here, greatly appreciate the efforts of you and everyone at TSRA and I'm not OK wih giving up anything we've gained so far to get OC passed.

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Re: TSRA support of Texas Open Carry

Postby G.A. Heath » Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:58 am

Douva wrote:Refresh my memory--when was New Mexico's lengthy, heated, well-publicized legislative battle over open carry? Oh, that's right, they never had one. New Mexico never had a statutory prohibition against open carry. They had legalized open carry long before they had legalized concealed carry; therefore, you're comparing apples to oranges.

Also, New Mexico does not have specific signage requirements--a business owner can use any sign, no matter how big or small, to prohibit carry on the premises. And until next month, restaurant carry is still illegal. Convenience store/grocery store carry was illegal until 2007. And they still don't allow carry in state parks or on public transportation. In the seven years I've been a CHL holder, we Texans have had a lot more freedom in where we can carry than have our neighbors in New Mexico, so I don't really envy New Mexico's freedom in how they can carry.


First off your right they never had to fight to get this right restored, however when it comes to making money a business will do whats in its best interest. If you have people start faxing, mailing, and/or emailing copies of receipts from competitors they will either change their ways or ignore you based on how many people and how much money is involved.

Secondly, your right NM doesn't have specific requirements for a sign, BUT I was comparing the number of signs I have seen over there to the number of signs I have seen here INCLUDING our 30.06 sign. As I said earlier a GOOD OC/CC bill would include language that sufficient notice was acceptable to prevent unlicensed carry which would push businesses to post any sign besides 30.06 to ban unlicensed carry leaving 30.06 to be used for banning carry by license holders. If a business wanted to completely ban legal carry they would have to post the "Big Ugly" and another sign which would make them seem redundant, ignorant, paranoid, unreasonable, scared, ect. to their customers. As for comparing apples to oranges you sometimes have to, especially when you want to describe the taste, look, feel, or other differences between them. I like both, but one of my friends is allergic to citrus so she can only have apples.
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Re: TSRA support of Texas Open Carry

Postby dicion » Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:27 am

Let me preface this by saying that this is all just my opinion. I am not one of those people frothing at the mouth for Open carry. If we had it, I would probably rarely, if ever use it, but the additional protection it would offer against accidental exposure of a concealed weapon would be great. Just ask Handdog. I think Campus Carry and the Parking Lot Bill are definitely MUCH more important at this time, and nothing should be put in the way of these 2 bills, at all.


It seems to me, that the best thing for OC Supporters to do, right now, would be to start a Texas-Based Organization to start _responsibly_ working to promote open carry in Texas.
Their target should be the 2013 or 2015 Legislative session, not the 2011.

They should work in concert with the current/future goals of the TSRA, and should work to present open carry responsibly. Not stepping on the toes of the TSRA, or other organizations also promoting any other pro-firearm legislation.

Their aim should be to _responsibly_ promote open carry to both current TSRA Members, to policymakers, and to the public. They should do this slowly with facts & logic, studies and focus groups. Not by spewing one-liners after any individual crime or incident, throwing other groups under the bus, or claiming it's a "Constitutionally Protected Right, and that's all it needs to be."
All 3 of the aforementioned things negatively portray the goal to a large group of people.

Other states passing similar laws will help with this. This group should help support OTHER state groups that are closer to passing open carry than we are, as the more states that have it, the more we look like we're 'Behind' and need to catch up with the times!

This WILL TAKE TIME. Maybe even until the 2015 or 2017 session if done perfectly right!

The first step should be to promote licensed carry. As said before, baby steps. Rome wasn't built in a day. Licensed carry is perfect as a first step because you're merely saying "Hey, all these people are ALREADY carrying handguns... and nothing has happened. You just couldn't see them before. Now you might. No biggie."

If licensed open carry ever DOES pass, this organization should NOT hold Open carry rallies, in which hundreds of people openly wear handguns in a public place. This will only portray the group negatively to the gun-fearing public. Rather, they should step back for a few years. Let people forget that it was ever passed. Let it become 'old hat', let people occasionally see a handgun, and get used to it. Then, a few legislative sessions later, maybe 2017, 2019 they should simply press to remove the license requirement.

To me.. this is how it should be done. Slowly, baby steps over time. If you press for something so radical so fast, the backlash is going to be Just as radical, just as fast. Slow and steady wins the race.

Just my 2c :thumbs2:

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Re: TSRA support of Texas Open Carry

Postby joe817 » Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:59 am

Well put dicion. I couldn't have said it better. :tiphat:
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Re: TSRA support of Texas Open Carry

Postby jecsd1 » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:01 pm

+1 Dicion. Now we just need to consolidate out efforts

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Re: TSRA support of Texas Open Carry

Postby Bart » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:13 pm

dicion wrote:They should work in concert with the current/future goals of the TSRA, and should work to present open carry responsibly. Not stepping on the toes of the TSRA, or other organizations also promoting any other pro-firearm legislation.

I disagree. TSRA leadership made it clear they don't want open carry in Texas. Open carry supporters should stop trying to cooperate with organizations that don't want to cooperate, and work for open and honest carry independently. We shouldn't step on anyone's toes needlessly, but we shouldn't be afraid of doing it to people and organizations that do it to us first. If someone attacks OC, he shouldn't expect our support for his pet cause. There's no reason to expend time/money helping someone who tries to hurt me.

dicion wrote:Other states passing similar laws will help with this. This group should help support OTHER state groups that are closer to passing open carry than we are, as the more states that have it, the more we look like we're 'Behind' and need to catch up with the times!

I agree completely with that. We need to keep reminding legislators, in private, about all the other states that don't penalize licensed people who fail to conceal. I think we should find a sympathetic legislator and ask them to introduce legislation that will

You know what?

I'm going to keep that part private. There is a proven contingent here that is opposed to open and honest carry, and it's counterproductive to publicize your whole play book. Even Charles has said there's things he's not making public, so we should follow his example and benefit from his experience.

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Re: TSRA support of Texas Open Carry

Postby LarryH » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:40 pm

Bart wrote:I disagree. TSRA leadership made it clear they don't want open carry in Texas. Open carry supporters should stop trying to cooperate with organizations that don't want to cooperate, and work for open and honest carry independently. We shouldn't step on anyone's toes needlessly, but we shouldn't be afraid of doing it to people and organizations that do it to us first. If someone attacks OC, he shouldn't expect our support for his pet cause. There's no reason to expend time/money helping someone who tries to hurt me.
:txflag:


I disagree with your disagreement. That's not what Charles said. He said that TSRA would not actively work towards supporting an open carry bill unless a significant portion of its membership indicated that was what they wanted. He also said that he wouldn't want to risk increased restrictions on concealed carry to gain open carry. There's a big difference, IMHO.

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Re: TSRA support of Texas Open Carry

Postby tacticool » Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:40 pm

Bart wrote:TSRA leadership made it clear they don't want open carry in Texas.

LarryH wrote:He also said that he wouldn't want to risk increased restrictions on concealed carry to gain open carry. There's a big difference, IMHO.

The difference doesn't sound that big. He said he doesn't want open carry in Texas because it might result in more 30.06 signs.
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Re: TSRA support of Texas Open Carry

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:21 pm

Bart wrote:
dicion wrote:They should work in concert with the current/future goals of the TSRA, and should work to present open carry responsibly. Not stepping on the toes of the TSRA, or other organizations also promoting any other pro-firearm legislation.

I disagree. TSRA leadership made it clear they don't want open carry in Texas. Open carry supporters should stop trying to cooperate with organizations that don't want to cooperate, and work for open and honest carry independently. We shouldn't step on anyone's toes needlessly, but we shouldn't be afraid of doing it to people and organizations that do it to us first. If someone attacks OC, he shouldn't expect our support for his pet cause. There's no reason to expend time/money helping someone who tries to hurt me.


This is completely false. None of the TSRA leadership have taken the position that TSRA doesn't want open-carry in Texas. I have stated my concern that OC would result in businesses posting their property as off-limits to concealed and open-carry, but I never said TSRA would oppose OC. In fact, I made it clear that TSRA would support OC if this is what our members wanted, and we would handle it as we do every high profile bill; i.e. on our two-year cycle. Why is it that some OC supporters feel it necessary to misstate TSRA's position on OC? Sour grapes perhaps because we won't support OC carry until our members want us to do so?

Bart wrote:Open carry supporters should stop trying to cooperate with organizations that don't want to cooperate, and work for open and honest carry independently. We shouldn't step on anyone's toes needlessly, but we shouldn't be afraid of doing it to people and organizations that do it to us first. If someone attacks OC, he shouldn't expect our support for his pet cause. There's no reason to expend time/money helping someone who tries to hurt me.

How is TSRA stepping on OC supporters' toes? Is it because we won't support OC or add it to our legislative agenda until and unless our members want us to do so?

I'm not sure what you mean by stepping on TSRA's toes, but it sure sounds like you mean either supporting a bad OC bill like the horrible one OpenCarry.org promoted last session, or perhaps opposing TSRA/NRA backed bills in 2011. If that is your "battle plan" it will most assuredly fail, as will any effort to pass OC using that tactic.

I've said it many times before, but here it is again:

    1. I don't oppose OC, but I have the concern I've expressed many times; OC is likely to lead to many businesses being posted off-limits to any carrying of a handgun;

    2. TSRA does not oppose OC;

    3. TSRA will not support OC until and unless our membership wants us to do so;

    4. TSRA (and I) will oppose any bill that hurts concealed carry, or any other right of gun owners, so an OC bill needs to be drafted by someone who knows what they are doing.

BTW, what is "open and honest carry?" Are you implying that concealed carry is somehow dishonest? Why do OC supporters have to coin sound bite phrases like that and "Constitutional Carry?" It reminds me of the Brady Bunch often prefacing their attacks with "it's for the kids," or "common sense gun laws."
Bart wrote:
dicion wrote:Other states passing similar laws will help with this. This group should help support OTHER state groups that are closer to passing open carry than we are, as the more states that have it, the more we look like we're 'Behind' and need to catch up with the times!


Bart wrote:I think we should find a sympathetic legislator and ask them to introduce legislation that will

You know what?

I'm going to keep that part private. There is a proven contingent here that is opposed to open and honest carry, and it's counterproductive to publicize your whole play book. Even Charles has said there's things he's not making public, so we should follow his example and benefit from his experience.


So you think you're going to get a pro-gun Senator or Representative to introduce a bill without TSRA and NRA knowing about it!? Good luck with that one.

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Re: TSRA support of Texas Open Carry

Postby Bart » Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:52 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by stepping on TSRA's toes

I was responding to dicion's comment, using his choice of words. In any case, I clearly stated that we should not be needlessly antagonistic. I also think we shouldn't stand idly by when somone in a glass house is throwing stones at us.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:So you think you're going to get a pro-gun Senator or Representative to introduce a bill without TSRA and NRA knowing about it!? Good luck with that one.

No, but I think you're smart enough to know that.
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