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ELB wrote:Perhaps this should be a thread of its own, but a question occurred to me in re-reading about this incident.

When did this robbery stop being "imminent"? And...when, if ever, did the justification to use deadly force disappear prior to arrival of police and/or the suspect ran off?

PC 9.31/9.32/9.33 says, paraphrasing, an actor is justified in using deadly force to protect himself or others if he reasonably believes force is necessary to prevent the use or attempted use of unlawful force against himself or others, and (in this case) to prevent the imminent commission of robbery or aggravated robbery.

"Imminent commission of robbery" seems pretty clear here.

So when did the "imminent commission of robbery" stop? When the suspect walked out the door? Then shooting the suspect as he got up off the floor could fall under the "robbery" justification for self-defense. (I'm not talking about tactics here, or whether it was a good idea in the long run, just the legal aspect).

But if "imminent commission" stopped when the suspect laid down on the floor, then legally shooting him as he got up would have to rely on the actor's (Javier's) reasonable belief that it the suspect was attempting to use deadly force against the actor or others. I think it would be reasonable since the suspect had indicated he had a gun in his pocket, and it might still be there, but it seems a stronger legal justification if "imminent commission of robbery" is still in play.

I would think after years of robberies and trials there is some answer to this in case law/precedent, but I do not know it.

If lethal force was used, I assume it would be up to district attorney whether or not there would be a prosecution and it would be up to a jury to decide whether or not the shooter was guilty.

68Charger wrote:That was you? I'm from San Antonio. Medical center area. It made me smile to hear that. Wish they had interviewed you to spread a good word about a chl. I'm glad all worked out for you. Where do you frequent to go to the shooting range?

I am glad they didnt interview me. I would have refused. I would not like that kind of attention. I also would not want that guy and his buddies somehow trying to track me down.

I usually go to A Place To Shoot. Ive gone to The Bullet Hole. I went to BlackHawk when I went and took my chl class and I really liked it. I am thinking of going to that range from now on.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:You did a great job.

Some have asked about how to answer a BG's question "are you a COP." My answer would be "you're under arrest for aggravated robbery. Stay on the ground and live." (Don't say "citizen's arrest" or everyone including the BG will think you're an idiot.) He'll think I'm a COP and as Excaliber said, he probably won't be as willing to get up.

Chas.

Thank you sir. Good idea. Let him think your a cop without saying your one. Looking back, Im glad the police didnt arrive while I had my weapon drawn. They could have mistaken me for the bad guy. Im starting to think letting him go or even shooting him if I had to is not the worst that could of happened.

Jumping Frog wrote:

Keith B wrote:If I am asked that question when trying to legally detain someone, my answer will be 'I am not with a local law enforcement agency. Now be quite and wait for the local authorities to arrive.'

I'd be shouting, "Shut the blamkety blank up and stay or the ground or I will shoot you.". I'd blow right past the question with a command.

I said no to him followed closely but something similar to what you posted. He still stood up though. I figured maybe the adrenaline he had was making him not think straight.

The Annoyed Man wrote:Javier730, well done. I have one question, and a comment or two.....

The question.....
Has your wife considered getting a CHL after this event? She was fortunate to have you with her at the time, but has she considered what might have happened if you had not been there?

The comments....
I think you probably handled this about as well as could be expected. The only two things I might have done differently are:

First — and let me be clear that this is a criticism of me, not you — is that I think I might have been frightened enough to shoot him when he started to get up, because for me, letting him get up is to let things spiral further out of control. He's damned lucky you had a cooler head.

Second — I would not have answered his question about you being a cop with anything more than, "if you don't stay down, I will shoot". That's all he needs to know.

But other than that, you did a fine job. Glad everyone is OK.

Yes. My wife is now looking to get her chl. Like I said before, the trigger was slowly being squeezed when he got up. After the second warning he backed up said "please dont shoot me!". His hands were up and he was stumbling back. He wasnt being very compliant but he no longer approaching me and was not reaching for a weapon. He had fear in his eyes. They were wide open. As for responding to his question, it just came out. Its hard to explain. Thank you for your comments.

ELB wrote:

Javier730 wrote: ... I could say to everyone, be very vigilant. I let my guard down for a few seconds and that bad man got way too close to my wife than he should have.

This is not something to beat yourself up over either -- it is just not humanly possible to be 100% "on" all the time and live in a generally peaceful society. (And that guy could have looked perfectly mild right up until he got to the door and put on a bandana...) I'll wager if you ask AndyC or any other combat vet, it's probably hard to stay 100% switched-on all the time even in bandit country where one is really motivated to pay attention. It's one reason you have a gun and train with it - to cover the times when you can't otherwise avoid the threat. You done good.

What you commented on is probably what really bothered me most. My wife said to me, "I thought you didnt see me. I thought you were not gonna come to me." That is really the worst part for me.

AndyC wrote:

Javier730 wrote:

SewTexas wrote:Javier, how are you and your wife doing? I'm sure you're both pretty shaken up.

Thanks for asking, we are actually doing pretty good. Not as shaken up as I thought we would be. Its a real eye opener for my wife though. She never had a problem with firearms but she never felt the need to carry one. That has since changed. As for me, the situation doesnt have me shaken up, I am really just kind of second guessing what I did. I keep thinking about what happened and replaying the situation in my head over and over. I hate to sound like a bad person but thinking back, I feel like I should of shot him because I would hate to find out that he hurt someone in the future. I know that police officers are not lawyers, and that they do not have a full understanding of the law, but 2 officers said that I would have been justified had I shot, and that in doing so I could have prevented him from hurting someone in the future. Another officer said I should of shot, not because of the reasons I said, but for the fact that at the distance the bad guy was, he could got to me before I could react. The comments made I know were just there opinion but they made sense and everything they told me was something I was already thinking about. Im almost 100% sure I could of squeezed off at least once if he tried something when he first got up though. Not really a traumatizing experience but it sure is something I will never forget.

As I said before:

AndyC wrote:you'll likely also be second-guessing yourself with the "shoulda's". This is normal; learn from it but don't beat yourself up, either - you did just fine

In my case, you actually hit the nail on the head. Like I said before, the incident itself doesnt have me traumatized, what bothers me is thinking what else I could of or should have done. Thank you for your much needed support.

joe817 wrote:Javier, I agree with all of the posters comments. Andy & Keith made excellent comments. What you and your wife went through, I pray none of us have to. Thank you for sharing. All of us who have not been in that situation have learned much from your experience. You are a credit to the CHL community, and I thank you for your candor. Well done.

Thank you. I posted this not only to share my experience with everyone here, but also to get some much needed opinions and support. It is very rewarding to me that someone here might learn something from this experience. I could say to everyone, be very vigilant. I let my guard down for a few seconds and that bad man got way too close to my wife than he should have.

Keith B wrote:

Javier730 wrote:

SewTexas wrote:Javier, how are you and your wife doing? I'm sure you're both pretty shaken up.

Thanks for asking, we are actually doing pretty good. Not as shaken up as I thought we would be. Its a real eye opener for my wife though. She never had a problem with firearms but she never felt the need to carry one. That has since changed. As for me, the situation doesnt have me shaken up, I am really just kind of second guessing what I did. I keep thinking about what happened and replaying the situation in my head over and over. I hate to sound like a bad person but thinking back, I feel like I should of shot him because I would hate to find out that he hurt someone in the future. I know that police officers are not lawyers, and that they do not have a full understanding of the law, but 2 officers said that I would have been justified had I shot, and that in doing so I could have prevented him from hurting someone in the future. Another officer said I should of shot, not because of the reasons I said, but for the fact that at the distance the bad guy was, he could got to me before I could react. The comments made I know were just there opinion but they made sense and everything they told me was something I was already thinking about. Im almost 100% sure I could of squeezed off at least once if he tried something when he first got up though. Not really a traumatizing experience but it sure is something I will never forget.

Trust me, you are better off not having shot him. Shooting a person will play on your psyche and cause you a lot more stress and nightmares. I was involved in two shootings as a police officer, and even not being the officer who shot and killed the bad guys (and they were both extremely bad) I required some counseling. Additionally, shooting him would have cost you money in the fact it would more than likely have gone to a Grand Jury, then you would need a lawyer. I am going to say he more than likely was NOT armed with a gun, was bluffing and him encountering you will likely make him think twice before he goes to rob another place.

Bottom line, you did well, real well, so don't beat yourself up by second guessing what you did.

Thank you sir. I appreciate it.

Id like to say thank you to everyone here for your comments. I feel good that you guys agree that what I did was somewhat right. Comments with some criticism will be taken in as knowledge and will be appreciated.

SewTexas wrote:Javier, how are you and your wife doing? I'm sure you're both pretty shaken up.

Thanks for asking, we are actually doing pretty good. Not as shaken up as I thought we would be. Its a real eye opener for my wife though. She never had a problem with firearms but she never felt the need to carry one. That has since changed. As for me, the situation doesnt have me shaken up, I am really just kind of second guessing what I did. I keep thinking about what happened and replaying the situation in my head over and over. I hate to sound like a bad person but thinking back, I feel like I should of shot him because I would hate to find out that he hurt someone in the future. I know that police officers are not lawyers, and that they do not have a full understanding of the law, but 2 officers said that I would have been justified had I shot, and that in doing so I could have prevented him from hurting someone in the future. Another officer said I should of shot, not because of the reasons I said, but for the fact that at the distance the bad guy was, he could got to me before I could react. The comments made I know were just there opinion but they made sense and everything they told me was something I was already thinking about. Im almost 100% sure I could of squeezed off at least once if he tried something when he first got up though. Not really a traumatizing experience but it sure is something I will never forget.

Last night my wife, son and I went out a little later than usual to get some sandwiches at Subway. I waited outside with my son and my wife went in to order. I was parked right in front of the store like I always do so I could keep an eye out on my wife. My son was on my phone playing fruit ninja and he asked me to check out his new high score. When I put my attention back on my wife, I noticed she looked really frightened and was walking toward the door, no subs in hand. I told my son to stay in the truck because something was wrong with mom and I had to get to her. As soon as I got to the door I noticed a hispanic man with a blue bandana covering the lower half of his face. My wife quickly said to me that he threatened to shoot tha cashier if she didnt hand over the cash. I quickly drew my Glock 23 and stepped inside and pointed at the bad guy. He had his hand in his sweater pocket and had what appeared to be a pistol. I yelled at him to get on the ground. He quickly put his hands up and went to the ground. He kept moving around and I yelled at him to stop moving. I may have used a little profanity. While on the ground he asked if I was a cop. For some reason I said "NO BUT IF YOU MOVED I WILL SHOOT YOU!" He slowly stood up. At this point he was about 8-10 feet away. He took a step towards me. I yelled, "GET BACK!" and he kind of jumped a little but didnt step back.I yelled, 'GET BACK OR I WILL SHOOT YOU". Again, I may have been a little vulgar. He quickly complied took about 3 steps back and begged for me not to shoot him. He started stumbling towards the back of the store looking for another exit. He could not seem to get out so he came toward the entrance where I was standing. He paused about 15-20 feet away. (This subway is a little larger than others I have been to.) At this point there was a few frightend customers and employees behind him so I took a few steps to my right so they would not be directly behind him if for so reason I had to fire. The people behind him were moving around real frantically. I knew they might be hit if I fired. I yelled to him, "JUST GO!". He quickly stumbled towards the door and ran away. I stepped outside and my wife was in our truck holding my son and on the phone with 911. I was prepared to be thrown to the ground or held at gun point. SAPD arrived, disarmed me and began asking about the vermins description. They were very professional. I never even saw him walk in even though I was parked right in front of the store. I am very vigilant but I let my guard down for a few seconds and he went in without me noticing. I feel bad that I told him to leave but I was thinking about everyones safety. He was very fortunate that he did not take another step toward me when he stood up. I was literally beginning to squeeze my trigger when that happened but released my finger when he stumbled back and begged for his worthless life. I still cant believe this happened to me. Heres some links to the story.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/ ... 885214.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.ksat.com/content/pns/ksat/ne ... urant.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;