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TAM, you made several good points and I agree almost 100%, so I am only going to make a couple small comments.

The Annoyed Man wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:58 amThis is all true, but if one loves liberty, then one has to extrapolate each possibility to its logical conclusion.....in its entirety. IF democrats succeed in gaining the senate, abolishing the filibuster, and (God help us) packing the Court, the American Experiment is over. Period. And if it is over, then what possible choice do patriots have, other than (a) submitting to the loss of our rights, or (b) fighting (literally) to defend them? And if it is to be fighting to defend them, then how does that NOT involve fighting for a separation from those states whose population majorities want a totalitarian leftist gov’t?

For the record, and I’m repeating myself ad nauseum here, only a fool wants this to happen; but equally, only a fool fails to recognize the possibilities and to prepare themselves spiritually and materially for those possibilities.

This is exactly why I was saying in another post that we need to plan our strategy and tactics now, before it is forced upon us. We need our contingency plans done, so we know what to do and how to act in each possible scenario. If we are lucky and the Republicans manage to keep control of the senate for the next four years, we will see some problems but should manage to keep the damage to our rights to a minimum. We need to plan for exactly what we want to do that we can hopefully get through, such as making a new federal law on how to conduct federal elections. That will be a hard fight but might be the best path for the country. I would hope that even people who like the result of this election would realize that when half the country have no faith in the election process, our country is doomed.

If the Republicans do not keep control of the senate, a completely different set of contingency plans is needed. For example, it might be time for Texas to break up into five states, as our legal right to do this is firm. That would give us ten US senators and it is highly likely that at least eight of them would be Republicans, changing control of the Senate again.

And if neither of these work, a third or more sets of contingency plans would be needed. I hope our elected leaders at the levels below the president are working on these plans now. Even assuming they are, we, as individuals, must work out our own contingency plans too.

Hopefully, one of the political sets works and we keep our country functioning as a republic composed of fifty (or fifty-four) states.

IF the worst happens, and the democrats take the senate, locking down any possibility of filibuster, and packing the court, then there is only ONE relatively peaceful way out of this—and this has been my message for several years now—and that is a Balkanization of the country. That Balkanization would take the form of relatively like-minded states forming semiautonomous regions in which DC becomes increasingly irrelevant and finally falls in on itself. It might be insurmountably hard (or not) for Texas to achieve independence. But it would be much easier for a hypothetical coalition of Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Missouri, Arkansas, and Louisiana to become independent.

My only comment here is that when I thought of this scenario, I foresaw a slightly different set of states. No complaint with the ones you chose, just that I saw it as basically being the states that touch Texas. Include New Mexico and drop of Kansas and Missouri. You do make a sound argument for including Kansas and Missouri though. I am not sure that your combination would not be the better one.

philip964 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:40 pm

crazy2medic wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:24 pm http://chng.it/W5FZ6KmmJC, my 2cents worth

This above seems to believe there is a legal way of leaving. If I remember during the Obama days, it was bantered about and I thought there was no legal mechanism.

Seems like since we were our own country, it would have been a good thing to stick in the joining agreement, but all I remember was Texas could become more smaller states if it wanted.

Any ideas?

In the case of Texas v. White, et al, SCOTUS ruled that membership in the United States was in perpetuity and that there was no legal or Constitutional way to dissolve that union. The logic used was that the original union was based on the Articles of Confederation specifically stated it was a perpetual union and the Constitution says it was to form a more perfect union. If a union is perpetual and then made more perfect, how could that not still be perpetual.

While this decision referred to Texas seceding during the Civil War, it can also be taken to mean the congress cannot kick us out nor can it agree to us leaving. The possibilities then become that a new SCOTUS disregards this precedent, either recognizes Texas independence on the basis of our secession or recognizing Texas independence on the basis of a congressional agreement granting us independence. Otherwise, Texas becomes independent solely by violent means and convincing the US and the world that we won the ensuing war.

I think that Texas cannot secede from the union, no matter what the people in it want. There are many good reasons to secede and many reasons to believe that there is an economy that could survive and sustain itself. There is little doubt in my mind that when Texas is its own republic again, it will succeed and survive.

But there is a small matter of whether or not the US will allow Texas to secede. And I do not think it will. Remember all of those economic facts that say Texas can survive without the US? There is an inverse question of whether or not the US can survive without Texas.I believe that there are strong indications that the US would not survive a peaceful exit by Texas. And this leads me to believe that the US would not let us leave.

There is another point about that to consider. Whether I agree or not, there is a SCOTUS decision (White) that says there is no way for any state to leave the union. In the words of Chief Justice Chase, the union is indissoluble. The US Congress is bound by this case and therefore cannot give us permission to leave.

Which brings about the question of if the US military would be used to enforce the union. I believe it would be used with very little restraint (maybe no nukes, but any conventional weapon). And there have been enough indicators that this has been considered. Do you remember the famous 29 Palms survey? Yes, they would shoot on us. If you doubt this one, remember Kent State. And then remember how vicious the last war between the states that seceded and those that remained turned out to be.

So, I propose that we table any talk of seceding from the US. It just ain't going to happen, IMHO. But we can make plans for what we will do when the US collapses under its own weight and the weight of the socialism that it has moved towards. When the US does collapse, it will break apart and Texas will be on its own.

I am actually hoping this doesn't happen, but I am unfortunately thinking it will. If it must happen, I pray that it will happen while I am alive and young enough to fight in it so that my children and grandchildren will not have to.