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by The Annoyed Man
Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:14 pm
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: Firearm Negligence
Replies: 35
Views: 3412

Re: Firearm Negligence

wharvey wrote:Cooper's 4 rules say it all and there is no reason to make things more complicated. Over complication just leads to rules not being followed.
That part I'll agree with. There is an illustrative example from the Bible which teaches this principle......and no, I'm not trying to preach, just using it as an example.

Everybody has heard of the Ten Commandments, but almost nobody is able to follow them (or even remember them all)—assuming you have a personal religious bent and even care to try. But when the disciples asked Jesus which was the greatest commandment, he gave them just two: 1) "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind;" and 2) "Love your neighbor as yourself." These two are easy to remember, and (here is where the illustration really kicks in) if you follow those two, you will be automatically obedient to the original ten.

Again, not trying to preach, just trying to illustrate. So Jeff Cooper's 4 rules are easy to remember, and if you adhere to them "religiously," you will be automatically obedient to just about any other gun safety rule that anybody cares to dream up.

Another illustration of simplicity which covers everything: The Three Laws of Robotics...
  1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
  2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
  3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.
by The Annoyed Man
Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:52 am
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: Firearm Negligence
Replies: 35
Views: 3412

Re: Firearm Negligence

MasterOfNone wrote:
Carry-a-Kimber wrote:
longhorn_92 wrote: 3.Keep the action open and the gun unloaded until you are ready to use it.
:headscratch

So should I wait until I draw my 1911 to pop in a mag and chamber a round??
Should I wait until a quail is in flight to thow a shell in my shotgun??
I don't know how a whitetail would react if I loaded a round and closed the bolt on my Rem 700 while he was standing 150 yards away.
The way the NRA explains this rule is that when you strap on your gun to carry, you are then using it. When you begin hunting, you are then using your gun. Basically, it is either being used or it is being stored.
I would add to that the following: any gun that is not in my safe is a gun that I am using, whether I have it on my person or not. I keep loaded guns in my house. They are not just laying around on the coffee table....although they might be if I am sitting there....but I keep a loaded gun next to my bed. In fact, I keep 2 or 3 loaded guns next to my bed—not because I think I will need three guns during the night, but because I don't know which one I'm going to leave the house with at any given moment until it comes time to leave the house. I know where they are. I know they are loaded. There are no rug rats running around my house, and my dog doesn't even know what a gun is and couldn't care less. I am using each of those guns.

When I put a gun in the safe, then I am not using it, and I store the guns in my safe in an unloaded condition. Even so, when I take one out of the safe, the first thing I do after making sure it is pointed in a safe direction with my finger off the trigger is to confirm that it isn't loaded.
by The Annoyed Man
Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:30 am
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: Firearm Negligence
Replies: 35
Views: 3412

Re: Firearm Negligence

Liberty wrote:A couple of these rules seem outright silly.

My guns are always loaded. An unloaded gun is pretty useless. Like a car out of gas.

I rely on my guns to keep my family and and seek safe. Failure when needed could be disastrous, I also stake my life on my cars mechanical condition.

I'm not sure where these rules come from, but I have some suspicions Mr. Fudd may have had something to do with it. They obviously didn't come from anyone self defense orientated.
Rules are conceived to be universally applicable to the initiated and the uninitiated alike. To you, a practiced gun owner, being told that a gun should be treated as if it is always loaded, all the time may seem silly......because of course you treat them that way anyway, because of course they ARE loaded. It seems redundant. But to the first time gun owner/first time shooter, it is not obvious. I have had a student sweep me with a gun and reminded them that they shouldn't point it at something they're not willing to destroy. Their answer was, "it's ok, I saw you unload it." My reply was, "did you verify that it was unloaded?" Their answer: "No." Me: "OK then, that is A) why we treat all guns as if they are loaded, and B) why we never point a firearm at something we're not willing to destroy." To you or me, that is obvious. But it isn't to the beginner and gun safety is an acquired habit.

Now, I could tell you about the time that I, an experienced gun owner at the time, shot a hole in my bedroom ceiling with a .44 Magnum revolver that I had just then "unloaded".............and did permanent damage to my hearing in the process. That was the lesson that taught me that all guns are loaded all the time, even when we think we have unloaded them. A significant portion of negligent discharges happen to gun owners who believe themselves to have some familiarity with their firearms, and a significant portion of those involve guns that the experienced owner believes to be unloaded. It gets worse when you are talking about noobies.

Two weeks ago, I taught a basic handgun class to a couple of ladies. One of them had her own Walther P22 that her dad had bought her, but she had never fired the gun, and hadn't handled it since it was purchased. She brought it to the range so that I could teach her how to run the gun. She handed me the box; I removed the pistol, observing the rules, and the first thing I did was pull the slide back to check the chamber. Lo and behold, it was loaded! She didn't load it, and she had no idea that it was loaded. Her dad must have loaded it............she is a single mom and she has an 8 year old girl running around the house.

It was my treating the gun as if it was loaded that averted the possibility of a disaster. You might think some of the rules are silly because they are so simplistic and easy to understand, but they do save lives when practiced.........even the lives of experienced gun owners like you and me. They say that "assume makes an ass out of you and me," but the truth is more like "assume with a gun, and it will kill somebody."

I mean you no disrespect in this post, but whenever I hear an experienced gun owner say things like that, I become afraid for them because I know from personal experience that it is the momentary complacency that kills. I'm like you. All of my guns are loaded if they are not locked up in a safe, because an unloaded gun is a club, not a gun. They have little or no usefulness if not loaded. So of course I treat them as if they are loaded, and because they are, I never have to wonder if the gun I pick up to defend myself is loaded or not. But because of this, and because of my own previous experience with negligent discharge, I have become downright paranoid about complacency. So, meaning this in the very best way, please be careful, and don't minimize the importance of these rules even for an experienced gun owner such as yourself. Other people, including raw beginners, read these pages.

How many times have you read a post on this board over the years that says something like this:
n00b wrote:Hi everybody, this is my first post here. I've been reading these pages and there seems to be a lot of knowledgeable people here. I am a complete beginner, and I have never even owned or shot a gun before, but I want to get my CHL because [insert reason here] and I'm hoping you guys could help me pick the right gun and carry method for me.
People who aren't experienced do read these pages. We have a responsibility to not make light of these basic rules of gun safety for their benefit, if not for our own.

Again, I mean no disrespect. I am just passionate about gun safety.
MasterOfNone wrote:Whether you sum it up in four rules or twenty, success is measured not by memorizing the words but by demonstrating the behaviors.
I would say that it isn't about memorize the words, but rather it's about memorizing the principles. For beginners, that means reading and memorizing the words which express those principles. But the trouble with trying to translate those words into instinctive behaviors is that accidents happen at the point where conscious thought parts ways with instinctive behavior. If you are not thinking those principles to yourself at the same time as you are demonstrating a behavior, then you are a negligent discharge waiting to happen, perhaps with tragic consequences.

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