Search found 4 matches

by The Annoyed Man
Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:54 am
Forum: Never Again!!
Topic: Manager at Texas Whataburger denies service to detective because of his gun
Replies: 131
Views: 8387

Re: Manager at Texas Whataburger denies service to detective because of his gun

mojo84 wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:23 am
The Annoyed Man wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:17 am
mojo84 wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:51 am
oohrah wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:26 am
In fact, 30.07 does NOT apply to Law Enforcement. It only applies to persons carrying under LTC.
That's why I said the cop wouldn't have thought the sign applied to him and it would not have helped in this situation.
Correct, and just to be clear, my position that they should post signage was not aimed at this particular incident with a LEO, but rather was aimed generally at Whataburger’s refusal to post 30.07 signs while still insisting on their property right to bar open carry from their stores. As long as they (A) take that position, and (B) refuse to post the signs, they are (C) NOT doing the right thing.

I absolutely agree with the proposition that it is their property, and therefore their right to keep open carry out of their stores. That’s not the issue for me. The issue is their refusal to acknoledge that they have some kind of moral obligation to give their paying customers the only kind of proper notice recognized by the law BEFORE that customer sets foot inside the store. That refusal has several negative outcomes for everyone concerned:
  1. It places an employee in the position of having to confront an armed person about their weapon.
  2. It’s embarrassing to the person who is armed - who may, after all, not be dressed in a manner where they can simply cover it up.
  3. It creates controversy in the form of bad publicity for the gun rights crowd, and good publicity for the MAIG/MDA crowd.
Thus, it shows a profound disrespect for a segment of their customer base, and a casual disregard for their employees’ safety. Frankly, it comes off as their being afraid to face the music, and it’s a turn off. Don’t want open carry? Post the darn signs. What could be more simple than that?
I understand and appreciate your position. I do not have a strong opinion one way or another about how they notify people since the law gives both options, signs or verbally or orally on a case by case basis. Also, from a practical sense, there are so few open carriers, I doubt this issue comes up very often. I also believe their decision to do it this way allows managers and operators the opportunity to use their own discretion whether to inform and not. I can see situations when there are no other or very few customers in the restaurant and the manager or operator decides to let it slide and then other times when there may be a packed house and the manager decides to notify. I do believe if they decide to inform someone, it should be done discretely so as to not embarrass the customer.

Here's a twist, I disagree with the idea that one should be required to orally or verbally as some advocate in order to have them not open carry in the place of business. I believe it should be up to the property owner to decide how they want to interact and notify the customer.

I also want to point out, I do not believe the only option is to have the open carrier leave. All they need to do is cover up their gun. If a shoulder rig is worn, all it takes is a jacket or cover shirt.
That seems reasonable, but the only thing I would quibble with is this: if indeed it is Whataburger’s intention to give managers some discretion in applying the “no open carry” rule, then that should be their public position because it sows confusion otherwise. They’ve taken a public stance of disallowing open carry......but then they privately tell their managers that it’s up to them to enforce it or not? To me, that’s kind of chicken manure.

But you’re certainly right that open carriers represent a fairly small segm,ent of the overall LTC community. I do OC myself on occasion, but more often than not, I conceal. And like Jusme mentioned above, if given notice, I’d just untuck my shirt and cover up. I just don’t like it when a company has a policy which “sucks” people in, only to subject them to possible notice.....without any kind of predictability. I prefer when a company either fishes or cuts bait, instead of keeping people on tenterhooks.
by The Annoyed Man
Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:17 am
Forum: Never Again!!
Topic: Manager at Texas Whataburger denies service to detective because of his gun
Replies: 131
Views: 8387

Re: Manager at Texas Whataburger denies service to detective because of his gun

mojo84 wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:51 am
oohrah wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:26 am
In fact, 30.07 does NOT apply to Law Enforcement. It only applies to persons carrying under LTC.
That's why I said the cop wouldn't have thought the sign applied to him and it would not have helped in this situation.
Correct, and just to be clear, my position that they should post signage was not aimed at this particular incident with a LEO, but rather was aimed generally at Whataburger’s refusal to post 30.07 signs while still insisting on their property right to bar open carry from their stores. As long as they (A) take that position, and (B) refuse to post the signs, they are (C) NOT doing the right thing.

I absolutely agree with the proposition that it is their property, and therefore their right to keep open carry out of their stores. That’s not the issue for me. The issue is their refusal to acknoledge that they have some kind of moral obligation to give their paying customers the only kind of proper notice recognized by the law BEFORE that customer sets foot inside the store. That refusal has several negative outcomes for everyone concerned:
  1. It places an employee in the position of having to confront an armed person about their weapon.
  2. It’s embarrassing to the person who is armed - who may, after all, not be dressed in a manner where they can simply cover it up.
  3. It creates controversy in the form of bad publicity for the gun rights crowd, and good publicity for the MAIG/MDA crowd.
Thus, it shows a profound disrespect for a segment of their customer base, and a casual disregard for their employees’ safety. Frankly, it comes off as their being afraid to face the music, and it’s a turn off. Don’t want open carry? Post the darn signs. What could be more simple than that?
by The Annoyed Man
Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:11 am
Forum: Never Again!!
Topic: Manager at Texas Whataburger denies service to detective because of his gun
Replies: 131
Views: 8387

Re: Manager at Texas Whataburger denies service to detective because of his gun

Jusme wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:54 am
Whataburger's open carry policy was well documented and publicized when OC first passed. This however was the result of one or two things, either the manager did not know that 30:07 does not apply to LEO either in uniform or plain clothes, or he/she was anti LEO.
Since there has been more than one incident involving LEO at Whataburger, I think they need to do more vetting of their employees, and make sure their training involves fully understanding Texas laws regarding LTC.
I have OC at the Whataburger in Alvarado, but just because I forgot their policy before entering. No one said anything, but if they had I would have simply, untucked my shirt. JMHO
I agree...... I would have simply untouched my shirt too. But I still don’t think that absolves Whataburger from the obligation of doing the right thing, and posting their stores with 30.07 signs. Just because their position was “well publicized” at the time, that doesn’t make it any more relevant. OC became law on January 1st 2016 - two and a half years ago. How many people did their message reach back then? It almost certainly was ignored by anyone without an LTC. It was absolutely unknown by people moving into the state since then. It very well may not have been on the radar of LTC holders back then who are NOT members of this forum. We are a group who tends to stay on top of the news when it is related to firearms carry - but we’re only a few thousand of the more than 1 million people with active LTCs. Whataburger’s policy was well discussed on these pages, but there’s no way we can seriously claim that word of Whataburger’s position reached the eyes/ears of all LTC holders, then or now.

Therefore, if Whataburger wants to ban open carry in their stores, it has TWO moral obligations to its LTC customers: (1) post all of its stores 30.07 to save those customers the embarrassment of being publicly refused service and made to leave, just like its competitor In ‘N Out does; and (2) make a better burger like In ‘N Out does.

It’s a matter of showing your customers a little respect.
by The Annoyed Man
Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:37 am
Forum: Never Again!!
Topic: Manager at Texas Whataburger denies service to detective because of his gun
Replies: 131
Views: 8387

Re: Manager at Texas Whataburger denies service to detective because of his gun

rotor wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:32 pm
Liberty wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:25 pm
If they would toss me or any other citizen out for wearing a gun, why shouldn't they kick out gun-toting cops without a uniform? Cop can either cover it or leave it in the car, just like the rest of us. Seems like he is just looking for special treatment. We've known how so many of them get turned off about the "Do you know who I am?" defense. This time the shoe is on the other foot.
So because they don't respect our constitutional rights they should treat law enforcement just as poorly? I can see us having the same rights to carry as law enforcement and I don't think a LTC holder or LEO should be asked to leave especially when there is no posting. Dump Whataburger. If they don't want open carry they should post. This has been covered many times on this forum.
Sure, they have property rights, but how about they have enough respect for their customers to post 30.07 signs, to save their customers the embarrassment of being kicked out of one of their stores? This stuff cuts both ways. Whataburger does have a right to enforce its dress code, but it ALSO has a moral duty to inform its paying customers of that dress code, via the mandated-by-law signage .......then everybody is happy, no employee is placed in the position of having to eject an armed person, and no LTC holder will be publicly embarrassed. There’s rights, and then there’s “the right thing to do”. Whataburger has rights, but they’re not doing the right thing.

In ‘N Out is better anyway. :mrgreen:

:leaving

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