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K-Texas wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:10 pm I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but what advantage could a bullpup possibly have over a short-barrel AR/M4, or pistol with a shoulder brace? It certainly isn't price!

Purely my understanding, but I think that a bullpup has two generally desirable characteristics: one is handling, the other is the ability to maintain muzzle velocity over a SBR barrel, regardless of bullet weight. I think that we can agree that, IF these goals are achieved, that is generally desirable. Your point about what spec ops personnel choose to use is well taken. Not nearly that I’m that kind of warrior, but that’s why I’m perfectly comfortable with an SBR or a 16" carbine.

But, I think with the fact we're all (or mostly all) civilians, other factors might come into play. Some have mentioned being able to more easily exit a vehicle because of the bullpup's short length. Or, for people of smaller stature or fairer gender, maybe having the weight of the gun held in closer to the body, giving them greater control over handling and with less fatigue, are both traits that might be called desirable for civilians in a way that maybe don’t matter as much to front line infantry or spec ops troops. Some of that can be solved by having a weapon with a folding stock, but that’s rare in the AR world, and costs a LOT of money in the SCAR world....assuming you want a .223/5.56 weapon.

My wife has an AR Carbine, and she doesn’t find it hard to shoot from the bench, but she does find it tiring to tote around. She’s beyond the 30th anniversary of her 30th birthday now, so she’s not going to go out and get all ripped at a CrossFit gym. A gun that doesn’t weigh much more than her AR, but that keeps its weight closer in to the body might be a way to at least partially solve some problems for her. Given that VERY few civilians are going to be involved in an exchange of fire beyond 100 yards, whether or not a TVOR or BDR is good for much better than 2-3 MOA is pretty much a non factor.

I guess my point is that, while I don’t think bullpups are absolutely necessary, I do think that they are justifiable if someone wants to lay down the price for one. In other words, it’s not an unreasonable purchase.

Chemist45 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:31 pm Hey Tam!
You need a PS-90. It ejects out the bottom and is a hell of a lot of fun to shoot.

Oh heck no! I’m sure it’s fun to shoot, but it looks like a space gun that escaped from a 1960s sci-fi movie, and the ammo is too expensive. OTH, if you’re buying, I’ll be happy to help you burn through a 1000 round lot.

Chemist45 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:55 pm Full disclosure: I love bullpups and don't mind the trigger.
Most bullpup triggers can be improved.
My Tavor can do 2" groups at 100 yards. YMMV. That being said, I would not use .223 for a deer rifle.
I think it is a very well designed and well built gun.
Palmetto State Armory has them on their AR-15 days of Christmas sale for $1100.
They are currently out of stock but usually honor back orders.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/iwi-tav ... 3a00+Email

I would call and ask.

I’m a lefty. IWI will do left handed conversions, and they also recommend a list of outside vendors that are IWI-certified to do the conversions. The only one in Texas is TK Tactical in Lucas, TX. They charge $155 for the conversion, plus $45 for insured return freight. So for me, buying a TVOR (or most other bullpups for that matter) will cost me another $200 or so on top of the price of the gun in order to make it usable for me....and that doesn’t include my cost to ship it to them.

Yes, the TVOR seems like a nice gun, especially if the price gets knocked down. But the extra cost and inconvenience of ownership for lefties makes it just not worth it to me. That’s one of the reasons I’m more bullish on the RDB for a bullpup for me. The ambidextrous controls and the downward ejection make it the most lefty-friendly bullpup.

I was actually reading up on this stuff a few days ago before first seeing this thread. The British SA80 bullpup military rifle doesn’t even have a lefty-conversion capability. If you’re issued a rifle in the British military, you learn to shoot and qualify right-handed, or you fail out. That’s seems foolish, when 15% of your pool of infantrymen will struggle to meet minimum standards, many of whom are going to otherwise be perfectly suited for the job.

The Steyr AUG can be converted, but it isn’t easily done by the owner/user....not to mention having to buy additional parts to do it.

I wouldn’t mind owning a bullpup, and maybe someday I will, but the hassle of making them lefty-friendly has influenced my decision to go with an SBR instead. The RDB solves that for me, so IF I buy a bullpup, it’ll be the RDB, even if the TVOR is a "nicer" gun.

Charles L. Cotton wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:52 pm I researched them a few months ago and this is what I learned. The trigger is typical for a bullpup - bad to terrible. However, there are aftermarket parts/triggers that make significant improvements. The deal-breaker for me was the lack of accuracy. The videos I've seen show 100 yd groups (or 100 yd equivalent) in the 2.5 to 5" range. They may be okay for clearing a room, but . . .

Chas.

I think that the primary market for bullpups here is for home defense/CQB, at distances where a 2.5-5.0 MOA gun probably won't make a difference. I like the idea of their general handiness, but I would not pick one myself for a primary home/personal defense weapon .... not when you can get an AR pistol that's just as handy, without the heavy/mushy triggers that bullpups are known for.

The TAVOR is 26.125″ long. The Kel-Tec RDB is 27.3" long. My home defense 11.5" SBR AR is 27.75" with the stock collapsed, and not counting the flashhider/suppressor mount or the suppressor. Slap a suppressor onto either of the bullpups, and it's still in the same size range as my SBR—and you can have an AR that is the same length as mine without having to register it, if you have a pistol instead of a SBR. It seems to me that the primary virtue of a bullpup then becomes the weight balance, with the weight of the barrel being closer to one's body, so a little bit handier without sacrificing barrel length, and hence ballistic performance. But again, at the distances I'm likely to use the SBR (or a bullpup), the slight loss of velocity to reduced barrel length isn't going to matter in terms of terminal ballistics.

So if your son is looking for a personal defense weapon, he might be better served by buying an AR pistol with a 10.5" to 11.5" barrel on it. There's not enough loss of ballistic performance at realistic personal defense distances to matter; the accuracy will be good if he's got a good barrel and BCG; the difference in length won't be but maybe 0.5"-1.0" longer than either of the bullpups; the trigger will be much better....even just a plain old mil-spec trigger; it will cost about half the price of the TAVOR, it will cost about the same price as the RDB (without any trigger and accuracy issues); and the aftermarket will be MUCH bigger for it.

So every time I consider getting a bullpup for myself, those are the thoughts I come up with. I hope your son has an easier time deciding than I did.

People who have them seem to like them. They're a little too spendy for my blood. MSRP is $1,999. As an alternative, Kel-Tec has the RDB (Rifle Downward-Ejecting Bullpup) which has also been well received, with an MSRP of $1275 ... and I've seen them for less than that. PSA had them for something like $899 not that long ago, although they are currently sold out. The couple that I've held even seemed like they were pretty well made, and they've gotten some good reviews.

https://www.keltecweapons.com/firearms/rifles/rdb/


GrabAGun.com has the black one for $796.99: https://grabagun.com/kel-tec-rdb-5-56-17-30rd-2.html