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Paladin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:37 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:07 am
As I noted before, many years experience as a firearms instructor has proven to me that people simply will not practice with ammo that costs $1+/round. They shoot practice ammo, but carry something else. That's Paul's major issue with hyper ammo. He never said it's a poor performer. He points to other issues that make it a poor choice for most people who have to buy their own ammo.

Chas.

Chas, you and Paul Harrell raise several good points. It certainly is a problem that LTC's do not practice with "precious" carry ammo.

I don't carry new ammo unless I have shot at least a box of 50. More extensive testing, like point-of-aim - point-of-impact, left-right handed only, etc is very good to have. Changing out carry ammo every 6-24 months is also the best plan.

That said, with modern handguns and modern premium ammunition(Gold Dot, Ranger, Federal Tactical, HST, etc) I have never, ever had a problem during testing or when I fired "old" ammo at the range. Unlike brass, those nickel casings look pristine even after carrying them in hot, humid environments after a long period of time.

I don't ever want to have a problem when my life is on the line, so I continue to test and cycle out old ammo. Fortunately I can financially comfortably afford to do so.

As I write this Gold Dot 9mm is going for around $22-24 per box of 50 and Winchester Personal Protection is going for around $20.

Lets not regard carry ammo as "precious", but a 10% premium for Gold Dot ammo is easily worth it in my opinion.

I think Gold Dots are far cheaper than other "hyper" ammo, at least when bought in 50 rd boxes. That's what I carry in my self-defense handguns. I've shot about 100 rds total, which isn't much since there are five guns in my rotation. However, I've shot at least 1,000 rds of factory-equivalent ammo. For example, I buy 124 gr JHP Gold Dot bullets for $250/1,000 and load them to duplicate factory velocity in my 5" Government model 9mm. Those are the ones I periodically shoot for practice. (I practice extensively with FMJs I load for a fraction of factory cost.) My total cost per 1,000 rds. is $290 compared to $480/1,000 if bought in 50 rd. boxes, or $1,099 if bought in 20 rds. boxes. I don't consider brass in my calculations because I have enough 9mm brass for three lifetimes. Using new Starline brass would add $130.00 to my figures.

Chas.

1911 Raptor wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:30 am

mrvmax wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:47 am

1911 Raptor wrote: ↑Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:26 pm

Paladin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:34 pm I carried WWB personal defense .45ACP hollowpoints for a while. Tests I've seen show they are decent performers.

But I prefer to carry the best ammo I can find and Gold Dot and HST are both very good.

Massad Ayoob, who is from the Northeast, looked intensely at the legal aspects of these things and indicates that hollow points are more likely to stop a criminal than FMJ's. Stopping a criminal with FMJ's may take so many rounds that the criminal more likely won't survive and FMJ's will likely over-penetrate:

Massad Ayoob: Is hollowpoint the best defensive ammo for concealed carry?

Massad Ayoob: Police ammo for the rest of us?

Agree with the video that carrying something named RIP or Zombie-whatever is un-PC at best.

I trust Masaad Ayoob more than a UTUBER. Masaad book combat shooting has a great chapter on ammo selection and he stays with premium self defense ammo that has been proven in line of duty. I highly recommend reading the book if you haven’t.

Keep in mind that Ayoob bases a lot of his advice being exposed to anti-gun and liberal parts of the US. Much of his advice reflects that and it may not always apply to us in Texas. He does have good info but it needs to be kept in perspective.

That may be true but I certainly haven’t detected that in his book combat shooting. Also remember a lot of what he says regarding ammunition and calibers is based on real world experience not only from himself but other officer and departments as well. I am no expert by any means but Ayoob has been there and done that and seen the results of ammunition on human tissue. He has extensive connections throughout the law enforcement community from which to interview and research.

I know Mas personally and I have the utmost respect for him and his experience. He does correctly address the possible bias against gun owners and self-defense shootings, but as mrvmax noted, he's in the anti-gun northeast. What is a potential problem in New Hampshire is not necessarily a problem in Texas. Also, having talked with Mas several times over the years, I can assure you that he would agree with Paul that people should test any ammo they carry in their gun and that they should practice extensively with the same ammo they carry. He would never condone practicing with Winchester white box, but carry Gold Dots, Ranger, etc.

Paul's experience is extensive and your comment about a youtuber indicates you are not aware of it. You also seem to believe that what Mas teaches contradicts Paul's extensive testing. That's hardly the case. Paul's testing does not show, nor does he claim, that hyper ammo doesn't work or that it is inferior. (Ironically, much of the hyper ammo is inferior to other brands that fall in the hyper ammo category.) His testing shows that, with very few exceptions, most hyper ammo is not significantly better performers than other quality ammo at a lower price. You cann't rely upon so-called real experience of agencies that use only hyper ammo. If no one uses Remington green box JHP's, then their experience with hyper ammo means nothing in terms of comparison.

As I noted before, many years experience as a firearms instructor has proven to me that people simply will not practice with ammo that costs $1+/round. They shoot practice ammo, but carry something else. That's Paul's major issue with hyper ammo. He never said it's a poor performer. He points to other issues that make it a poor choice for most people who have to buy their own ammo.

Chas.

Paul has tested a very large percentage of so-called "hyper ammo." His opinions are conclusions based upon real world testing, not the reputation of the ammo manufacturer, or advertising hype. I doubt seriously anyone has tested their magic ammo using his meat target, or anything remotely close to it. So upon what do we rely? Reputation, advertising, one or two anecdotal reports, and pure faith are about all there is to go on, if you don't accept real world testing. That's not anything I'll bet my life on, especially if I don't test extensively and 10 to 100 rounds isn't testing in my book. The reason I carry Gold Dots in all of my self-defense handguns is because it is all my HPD SWAT buddy carries and what HPD provided to officers. That agency has a lot of experience with that round and it performs well. It's also far more expensive than cheaper JHP ammo. What we do not have is the same level of HPD experience with Remington Green box JHPs that could have results equal or close to Gold Dots.

Winchester white box did perform better than some of the hyper ammo Paul has tested against the meat target. It wasn't better than all, but I don't recall a single premium brand that was significantly more effective than lower cost ammo, other than in .380ACP.

He is absolutely right about people not performing realistic reliability and accuracy testing or practice with expensive hyper ammo. When I tell my students to shoot at least 100 rds each week, I often hear that $XX/box is too expensive! They are talking about Winchester white box, UMC, Remington green box, etc., practice ammo, not premium ammo at over $1/rd. As Paul notes in the above-linked video, when he refers to accuracy with hyper ammo, he's talking about POA v. POI, not potential group size. I know this is a problem because I've seen it with some of my practice ammo v. hyper ammo. I've also seen it with students' guns and ammo.

Paul has posted many videos testing a lot of different ammo and guns. I don't know of anyone who even comes close to his testing under conditions as close to real world as possible. His goal isn't to kill anyone's sacred cow. It is to provide empirical evidence for us to rely upon or reject. Perhaps it's the lawyer in me, but I find his evidence convincing.

All of his testing is done with pistol ammo, so his results cannot be imputed to rifle ammo. That's a totally different animal.

Chas.

Paul recently released a video discussing his dislike of what he calls "hyper ammo." It's an excellent discussion overall and well worth 30 minutes of your time. I disagree with part of his concern about the impact on law enforcement and prosecutors. I absolutely agree with his concern about RIP and Zombie Max ammo. Other than that, I'm in agreement even though I carry Gold Dots in my .45ACP, 38 Super and 9mm. I have tested it extensively for function and poa - poi.

Chas.