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Feed&Guns wrote:

Excaliber wrote:

Feed&Guns wrote:@OlBill - good point about repetitions. You could do 1000 "manipulations" in your living room. But, my point to them was that most people simply aren't going to even do that. They're going to get their CHL, buy a gun, and then shoot it twice a year maybe. They should practice, but most won't. It's like me and my gym membership. Pay every month. Haven't been in over 6 months though. And it's practically across the street from my house. I did do a few pushups in my living room the other day. Then my dog licked me in my face so I quit and played with the dog. Most people won't train so I recommend a gun that comes most naturally. "Point and shoot". And maybe even consider a laser. I hate for them to get dependent on it, and I don't have one on my carry gun, but for people who simply won't ever train but want to feel safer because they carry... that's how I'm thinking about it. And when they ask about me not having a laser, I tell them I'd be happy to sell them the amount of ammo I shoot each month (in a nice way).

@Taypo - OT, how do you like that VP9? I really thought I wanted one because I liked the grip concept. I carry a glock and didn't like the grip. Thought about M&P followed by XDM and then I saw the VP9. Drool. Then I held one (at Knob Creek, no less, while on vacation crossing the country). Didn't care for the feel for some reason. HKs are great (so I hear) but I was really turned off by the feel. It felt, oddly enough, cheap and flimsy. Reminds me of wanting a Jeep Wrangler so bad until the one day I drove one and hated the feeling of nearly rolling over around curves. Cured my wants in one drive. Now I just put a Hogue grip sleeve on my G19 and feel much better. I'm sure it shoots well like an HK should.

The VP9 has three optional grip inserts for both sides of the grip, and three for the backstrap. With a little experimenting, I think just about anyone can come up with a superior ergonomic setup for their hands. You can use them in any combination (e.g., palm swell on one side and narrow on the other.)

It took me about an hour of fiddling around with different combinations, but I now have the most ergonomic double stack handgun in my collection. I still carry the 1911 more (it's hard to get more ergonomic than a single stack 1911), but when I need high capacity, the VP9 beats my "2 x 4" Glock every time. The trigger is also outstanding for a striker fired gun, and reliability is top notch (as you would expect from H&K). The gun is surprisingly light unloaded, but a full magazine restores the feel you're used to, and it meets your requirement for "draw and shoot". The engineering story behind it is impressive too - H&K didn't just rush this one out the door.

I'd suggest giving it another look after experimenting with the grip inserts.

Everything you said is what I expected. I thought, "M&P has a great idea and a non-2x4 shaped grip...I like that!" Then I saw the VP9 and said, "Man, everything I like about the M&P this has and more. Even more customizable." But when I held one, I was very underwhelmed by the "quality feel". I knew I could modify the grip characteristics to fit better, but I liken it to my eating habits. I detest eating with plastic flatware because it feels cheap. I even hate the flimsy cafeteria style flatware. Now, I'll eat a $1.88 Boston Market on sale TV dinner...but I insist on eating it with "real" flatware. It was kind of like that. Perhaps like you said with it loaded and properly fit, I'd have liked it more. Maybe I'll give it another shot. I really wanted to like that gun, too.

Feed&Guns wrote:@OlBill - good point about repetitions. You could do 1000 "manipulations" in your living room. But, my point to them was that most people simply aren't going to even do that. They're going to get their CHL, buy a gun, and then shoot it twice a year maybe. They should practice, but most won't. It's like me and my gym membership. Pay every month. Haven't been in over 6 months though. And it's practically across the street from my house. I did do a few pushups in my living room the other day. Then my dog licked me in my face so I quit and played with the dog. Most people won't train so I recommend a gun that comes most naturally. "Point and shoot". And maybe even consider a laser. I hate for them to get dependent on it, and I don't have one on my carry gun, but for people who simply won't ever train but want to feel safer because they carry... that's how I'm thinking about it. And when they ask about me not having a laser, I tell them I'd be happy to sell them the amount of ammo I shoot each month (in a nice way).

@Taypo - OT, how do you like that VP9? I really thought I wanted one because I liked the grip concept. I carry a glock and didn't like the grip. Thought about M&P followed by XDM and then I saw the VP9. Drool. Then I held one (at Knob Creek, no less, while on vacation crossing the country). Didn't care for the feel for some reason. HKs are great (so I hear) but I was really turned off by the feel. It felt, oddly enough, cheap and flimsy. Reminds me of wanting a Jeep Wrangler so bad until the one day I drove one and hated the feeling of nearly rolling over around curves. Cured my wants in one drive. Now I just put a Hogue grip sleeve on my G19 and feel much better. I'm sure it shoots well like an HK should.

AndyC wrote:

GlockDude26 wrote:i still for the life of me can't figure out why people insist on carrying a 1911 for self defense period....it must be for the reminiscent feeling of the glory days or something. they're big, heavy, and have limited mag capacity.

You don't have to, any more than you would question a man's choice of wife - but for me, primarily because they're slim and I'm intimately familiar with them.

They're also reliable, accurate, shoot a big bullet and have excellent ergonomics - I accept the fact that they carry less ammo than modern designs but I'm fine with the trade-off. I agree with you, though; they likely wouldn't suit sissies who whine about weight, the casual user who just won't learn how they work or folks who miss a lot