TX: Austin man defending his home with rifle from burglars shot and killed by police

[Paladin]

Give the circumstances:

Report of a man with a rifle at a house.
Upon arrival the police hear two shots.
A man with a rifle appears at the corner of said house.
Although the man did not point the rifle directly at the LEO, the rifle is at a low ready in the general direction of the LEO.

So, is the LEO supposed to wait to see if the rifle goes from low ready to pointing at the LEO before engaging?
If so, what if the man does so and the LEO does shoot first and misses and the man with the rifle does not miss.

This is a close call but I side with the LEO.

I've done Force-on-Force scenario training with an HPD instructor and we trained for engaging armed potential threats...we trained to #1 engage as a team, #2 properly use cover, #3 shoot when there is an immediate threat. We had the advantage and we won those fights. It took all of 2 days of airsoft scenario training to get to the point where we executed that successfully. I didn't think it was that difficult. It was very affordable and valuable training for me as a civilian.

[Paladin]

That said, I also think that leaving your home to investigate a possible burglar is dumb. There ain't nothin outside my house that is worth risking my life for.

Yes it is.

[puma guy]

Give the circumstances:

Report of a man with a rifle at a house.
Upon arrival the police hear two shots.
A man with a rifle appears at the corner of said house.
Although the man did not point the rifle directly at the LEO, the rifle is at a low ready in the general direction of the LEO.

So, is the LEO supposed to wait to see if the rifle goes from low ready to pointing at the LEO before engaging?
If so, what if the man does so and the LEO does shoot first and misses and the man with the rifle does not miss.

This is a close call but I side with the LEO.

You're assuming the man knew the officer was there and I don't think he did judging by the Ring video that never shows the victim looking toward the direction of the police. The officer never ID'd himself, gave a command and fired before he finished that command. Shooting 5 times from behind cover. Twice after the victim had dropped the weapon. At the very least the officer should have shouted "Police" prior to any commands. Extremely poor training or maybe a trigger happy cop. They exist. I knew one personally. His voice inflection after shooting a man 5 times is weirdly calm. That's my humble opinion after watching the videos.

[clarionite]

I have to say this. Sometimes we make mistakes and we learn from them. Other times we make mistakes that we pay for and everybody else learns from them. Standing in your front yard firing off a rifle is never a smart move. EVER! At least not if you live in a suburb. Now my SIL's parents lived on 80 acres out in Paradise Texas. It was not alarming to hear a gunshot go off outside at their place. It was often some coyote getting shot while trying to still the family chickens.

While I agree it's not optimal to be outside shooting in, I can think of scenarios where that would be the best choice of bad choices.

Primarily would be home invaders inside the home and you're putting ground between you and them. If the façade of the home is masonry you may also be getting a bit of cover.

I cover in my LTC class being aware of the situation and that you may not be able to tell the bad guy from the good in a quick assessment. Primary example would be coming around the corner and seeing a person on the ground with another on/over them with a gun drawn. Who knows if the one on the ground was an attacker and the other had just managed to gain control of the situation before you rounded the corner. Another example I give is a van pulling up to the mall and someone jumping out and grabbing a 13 year old girl. That could be a runaway's parents having just located her. I advise my students to be a good witness when you can, and be hesitant to pull the trigger unless your or your loved ones lives are imminently in danger. I handle that in a 6 hour class, of students that statistically will never have to use the training. I'm flabbergasted that in a profession that every day could result in you having to make those choices they don't get more training.

[03Lightningrocks]

I have to say this. Sometimes we make mistakes and we learn from them. Other times we make mistakes that we pay for and everybody else learns from them. Standing in your front yard firing off a rifle is never a smart move. EVER! At least not if you live in a suburb. Now my SIL's parents lived on 80 acres out in Paradise Texas. It was not alarming to hear a gunshot go off outside at their place. It was often some coyote getting shot while trying to still the family chickens.

While I agree it's not optimal to be outside shooting in, I can think of scenarios where that would be the best choice of bad choices.

Primarily would be home invaders inside the home and you're putting ground between you and them. If the façade of the home is masonry you may also be getting a bit of cover.

I cover in my LTC class being aware of the situation and that you may not be able to tell the bad guy from the good in a quick assessment. Primary example would be coming around the corner and seeing a person on the ground with another on/over them with a gun drawn. Who knows if the one on the ground was an attacker and the other had just managed to gain control of the situation before you rounded the corner. Another example I give is a van pulling up to the mall and someone jumping out and grabbing a 13 year old girl. That could be a runaway's parents having just located her. I advise my students to be a good witness when you can, and be hesitant to pull the trigger unless your or your loved ones lives are imminently in danger. I handle that in a 6 hour class, of students that statistically will never have to use the training. I'm flabbergasted that in a profession that every day could result in you having to make those choices they don't get more training.

I am not reading much in your reply that pertains to standing outside in a suburb firing a rifle. Not only is it illegal, it is dangerously stupid. As this feller just learned. This was not related to any of the situations you mentioned in your second paragraph. This was a guy who was standing outside his home firing a rifle towards it while shouting. How the heck would any cop or any other person know you lived in the home you were firing at?

I do think it sounds like the cop shot the guy before giving him a chance to drop his weapon but that is the human part of the situation. This cop should be terminated at the least and possibly be charged criminally if the facts point in that direction but it does not change the dumb move of standing outside in a suburb firing off a rifle.

[clarionite]

I have to say this. Sometimes we make mistakes and we learn from them. Other times we make mistakes that we pay for and everybody else learns from them. Standing in your front yard firing off a rifle is never a smart move. EVER! At least not if you live in a suburb. Now my SIL's parents lived on 80 acres out in Paradise Texas. It was not alarming to hear a gunshot go off outside at their place. It was often some coyote getting shot while trying to still the family chickens.

While I agree it's not optimal to be outside shooting in, I can think of scenarios where that would be the best choice of bad choices.

Primarily would be home invaders inside the home and you're putting ground between you and them. If the façade of the home is masonry you may also be getting a bit of cover.

...

I am not reading much in your reply that pertains to standing outside in a suburb firing a rifle. Not only is it illegal, it is dangerously stupid. As this feller just learned. This was not related to any of the situations you mentioned in your second paragraph. This was a guy who was standing outside his home firing a rifle towards it while shouting. How the heck would any cop or any other person know you lived in the home you were firing at?

I do think it sounds like the cop shot the guy before giving him a chance to drop his weapon but that is the human part of the situation. This cop should be terminated at the least and possibly be charged criminally if the facts point in that direction but it does not change the dumb move of standing outside in a suburb firing off a rifle.

I'm not sure how being in a suburb negates the issue of putting ground and cover between you and a threat. I'm not saying that's what happened in this case. It's too early to tell if the man was having a mental break and standing on his front porch shooting in, or if there was a threat inside that took advantage of the confusion out front to get away. I was just saying that there are scenarios where I can picture being on my front porch taking cover behind the 12" thick stone and shooting at an armed home invader before they were able to get to my wife or step-daughter would be the least awful choice.

If no one else were in the house and I was forced out of my home to take a better defensible position, then of course I wouldn't fire into my house. I'm the one who has to fix it when it's all done. But I'd really hate to get shot as soon as police rolled up and I'm in my skivvies or less if nobody else was home at the time in my front yard with my AR trained on my house.