TX: People and pets being shot with BB guns at Sienna Plantation

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Re: TX: People and pets being shot with BB guns at Sienna Plantation

#16

Post by E.Marquez » Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:14 pm

rotor wrote:My Gammo Whisper supposedly can get up to 1200 fps. Much more than your old fashioned Daisy. I am sure if it hit an appropriate spot it might kill a human. Shooting at a car with a bunch of teens and possibly killing one would be a tough sell in court. There is no easy answer for this one except to duck down and let the police handle it.
That's what i have, you have to use a very specific pellet in .177 to get that speed, but even with standard pellets (still much different then your dads days ) its at 1050 FPS
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Re: TX: People and pets being shot with BB guns at Sienna Plantation

#17

Post by treadlightly » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:21 pm

I agree it is a little short of justification of force. On the other hand, they drew blood. I'd call it assault, not sure what the law would say.


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Re: TX: People and pets being shot with BB guns at Sienna Plantation

#18

Post by Mike S » Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:20 pm

treadlightly wrote:I agree it is a little short of justification of force. On the other hand, they drew blood. I'd call it assault, not sure what the law would say.
I think easily charged as Assault under TPC 22.01 (
http://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/ ... 22-01.html );

possibly Aggravated Assault if the prosecutor considers the BB gun as a deadly weapon (but I still think that's a stretch). ( http://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/ ... 22-02.html )

Another possible charge I could see would be TPC 22.0 5 Deadly Conduct (the elements of Class A Misdemeanor, probably not the Felony one since not a firearm).

http://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/ ... 22-05.html

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Re: TX: People and pets being shot with BB guns at Sienna Plantation

#19

Post by Oldgringo » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:42 pm

Are BB guns being confused with pellet guns in this thread? They are both air rifles but that is about where the similarities stop.

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Re: TX: People and pets being shot with BB guns at Sienna Plantation

#20

Post by The Annoyed Man » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:09 pm

Mike S wrote:
Ryan wrote:
Mike S wrote:
philip964 wrote:
Would it be legal to use deadly force to defend yourself?
To use deadly force would require that you reasonably believe that it is immediately necessary, and that you or another is in jeopardy of death or serious bodily injury. I doubt a BB gun would (other than the rarest of circumstances) cause death; however it could easily put out an eye which I believe would meet the definition of...'permanent or protracted loss of an organ or bodily function..' (I'm paraphrasing).

Not to downplay the use of deadly force, but the saying "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes" comes to mind.

ETA: Another consideration is that a reasonable person could mistake the sound of a BB gun firing, especially a CO2 powered one, for a .22 pistol. It boils down to what the defender (or defendant if it comes to that..) reasonably believed in the heat of the moment.
I've got a .22 caliber pellet gun, that I would bet every last dollar I own, would most definitely kill a human. It's capable of well over 1000fps. Air rifles have come a LONG way from the Red Ryder that we all probably owned at one point.
Here's a ballistic gel test some guy did comparing different brands/styles of pellets. (I have no idea how scientific his process was; anyone can post anything to the Internet).

http://ballisticsgel.blogspot.com/2008/ ... l.html?m=1
Looks
His test was from an air gun somewhere in the upper 800fps range, with different pellets, using a piece of leather to simulate skin, & conducted at 5'. At 5' from the target, his best penetration ranged from 6" - 8 3/4".

So yes, a pellet gun CAN kill a person. I'm sure if I'd Googled 'pellet gun fatalities' there'd be more than one example.

I don't want to sound argumentative, however, but just because it COULD kill doesn't change my mind as to the probability of it causing death. That's where the totality of the circumstances play a role. If someone is shot with your 1000+ fps (muzzle velocity) pellet rifle pushing a 15-grain pellet from across the dinner table it would definitely break skin, & if not obstructed by heavy clothing might well penetrate deep enough to reach vital areas or cause internal hemorrhage. However, if hit from the same 15-grain pellet from across the yard there's significant velocity loss & much less likely that it would kill a person.

In the end, if I reasonable believed that I was at risk of death OR serious bodily injury (as Texas law allows) the response would likely be very similar regardless of the instrument (BB gun/real gun/#2 pencil aimed at my neck at grappling range). It boils down to what a reasonable response to the threat would be, without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.
Bottom line..... Someone drive-by shoots at you from a vehicle, with a weapon that sounds and looks like a firearm, possibly a .22........ Are you going to try and get a closer look and make sure it isn't a BB gun before deciding what to do, OR.....are you going to assume that it really is a firearm and act accordingly, whether that means return fire or find cover, or both?

I'm going to assume that it IS a firearm, because in the exigent circumstances, that is the only reasonable assumption; and that is going to guide my response. IF that response is to return fire, and that wounds or even kills the other person, that's on him, not me. He shot first, and it's not my fault if he brought a BB gun to a firefight.
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Re: TX: People and pets being shot with BB guns at Sienna Plantation

#21

Post by sugar land dave » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:01 pm

I guess we have a lot of supermen here. Which of you wants to be shot by the new improved air rifles or guns? Where is it ok to be shot by these? Eye? Temple or ear? Groin area? Maybe in the lower back or spine area? How about the neck?

If I am shot at from a car while I am walking, and I then exchange fire, I am willing to take my chances with a jury of fellow Texans. They make even pink guns these days, so I will not expect myself to be an expert at identifying the weapon firing at me. Gangster wannabes should not shoot people from cars in Texas

Arrows only travel at 200 to 300 fps. but I would not want anyone shooting one of those at me either.
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Re: TX: People and pets being shot with BB guns at Sienna Plantation

#22

Post by remanifest » Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:06 am

sugar land dave wrote:I guess we have a lot of supermen here. Which of you wants to be shot by the new improved air rifles or guns? Where is it ok to be shot by these? Eye? Temple or ear? Groin area? Maybe in the lower back or spine area? How about the neck?

If I am shot at from a car while I am walking, and I then exchange fire, I am willing to take my chances with a jury of fellow Texans. They make even pink guns these days, so I will not expect myself to be an expert at identifying the weapon firing at me. Gangster wannabes should not shoot people from cars in Texas

Arrows only travel at 200 to 300 fps. but I would not want anyone shooting one of those at me either.
I'm with you on returning fire if they point any weapon at you. You'd win that case all day.

Next thought, not connected to the above quote:
I asked someone on here about pursuit earlier. Seems to me it would be illegal if you were to see them fire the weapon, then hop in your car and chase them to shoot them down. Honest question - how would a District Attorney choose to proceed if this happened?
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Re: TX: People and pets being shot with BB guns at Sienna Plantation

#23

Post by Skiprr » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:10 am

remanifest wrote: Next thought, not connected to the above quote:
I asked someone on here about pursuit earlier. Seems to me it would be illegal if you were to see them fire the weapon, then hop in your car and chase them to shoot them down. Honest question - how would a District Attorney choose to proceed if this happened?
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Re: TX: People and pets being shot with BB guns at Sienna Plantation

#24

Post by AJSully421 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:21 am

Javier730 wrote:Shoot at me and I am shooting back.
This. More specifically, if I see you coming with your window rolled down and I can see what looks like a handgun in your hand... What would a reasonable person think was going on?
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Re: TX: People and pets being shot with BB guns at Sienna Plantation

#25

Post by AJSully421 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:26 am

Mike S wrote:
philip964 wrote:
Would it be legal to use deadly force to defend yourself?
To use deadly force would require that you reasonably believe that it is immediately necessary, and that you or another is in jeopardy of death or serious bodily injury. I doubt a BB gun would (other than the rarest of circumstances) cause death; however it could easily put out an eye which I believe would meet the definition of...'permanent or protracted loss of an organ or bodily function..' (I'm paraphrasing).

Not to downplay the use of deadly force, but the saying "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes" comes to mind.

ETA: Another consideration is that a reasonable person could mistake the sound of a BB gun firing, especially a CO2 powered one, for a .22 pistol. It boils down to what the defender (or defendant if it comes to that..) reasonably believed in the heat of the moment.
I have a suppressed .22 that is about the same noise level as my kid's Red Ryder, slightly quieter than my Daisy CO2 air pistol.
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Re: TX: People and pets being shot with BB guns at Sienna Plantation

#26

Post by remanifest » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:38 am

Skiprr wrote:
remanifest wrote: Next thought, not connected to the above quote:
I asked someone on here about pursuit earlier. Seems to me it would be illegal if you were to see them fire the weapon, then hop in your car and chase them to shoot them down. Honest question - how would a District Attorney choose to proceed if this happened?
Please create a new Topic. Forum Rule #10. Do not hijack threads. If a post gives you an idea for a new or different discussion, start a new thread.
Got it - thank you.
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Re: TX: People and pets being shot with BB guns at Sienna Plantation

#27

Post by Skiprr » Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:15 am

remanifest wrote: Got it - thank you.
:thumbs2:

BTW, I'm what you'd call a very low-grade prepper. Real preppers would laugh at me.

I've thought for some time about adding a break-barrel pellet rifle to the fold: no CO2, no nothing but the uber-cheap pellets.

Several months ago I caved in and bought a Ruger. Dirt cheap from Midway.

Came with a crappy 4x scope, but I mounted it and decided to go in the backyard and, at just under 20 yards, see if it was on paper before taking it to the range (I have a number of laser boresighters, but not for .177).

Target on 3/4" 4x8 plywood backed by a heavy blanket. What could go wrong?

If I use this thing much, my left arm will look like Arnold Schwarzenegger's. ;-)

But at about 19 yards, two of three pellets went completely through the 3/4" plywood. One poked its nose through, but didn't break free. And the report was about the same as a sub-sonic .22LR.

A shot from near-distance at a vehicle windshield or window would be indistinguishable from a sub-sonic .22LR. It would penetrate most automotive glass if hit at a near-perpendicular angle.
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Re: TX: People and pets being shot with BB guns at Sienna Plantation

#28

Post by treadlightly » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:20 am

Interesting - the first air rifles were for battle. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_air_rifle

I also read they would penetrate a one inch board at 100 yards.

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Re: TX: People and pets being shot with BB guns at Sienna Plantation

#29

Post by Oldgringo » Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:10 am

treadlightly wrote:Interesting - the first air rifles were for battle. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_air_rifle

I also read they would penetrate a one inch board at 100 yards.
I've read that Lewis and Clark had some sort of air rifle with them when they went to what was to become the left coast a few years back.


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Re: TX: People and pets being shot with BB guns at Sienna Plantation

#30

Post by abom2 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:14 am

As stated earlier, those people doing this are good candidates for a Darwin award. With the media awareness these folks may stop, but probably the majority of participants will not learn from this stupidity. More than likely they will move on to a much more ignorant action in their quest to be a "Darwin Award Recipient".

As to the whether a bb-gun is lethal or not. I was shot in the back when I was 6 years old by a neighbors cousin. Distance was well over 25 yds away. BB lodged under the skin over my right shoulder blade. Kid was playing with his "Christmas present", he did not know me from Adam, just saw a younger kid riding his bicycle down the street and shot me.

I still got a whipping from Dad. Not for getting shot, but for my retaliatory actions.

I have used bb-guns, wrist rocket sling shots, and pellet rifles to take small game, drive off or kill varmints, or just generally recreational target shooting. As a newlywed Marine Corporal (no money), I used an old Daisy pump air rifle to kill the fox and grey squirrels that resided in the pecan trees around the rental trailer we lived in. I also used the wrist rocket to bag rabbits using marbles from my younger days to keep meat on the table.

I do not underestimate any type of item that launches a projectile and sadly I would probably engage/return fire in the heat of the moment. It takes longer for the mind to discriminate as to what have I been shot with than the reaction to defend/retaliate because "I have been shot!".

I would suspect these "kids" have been raised without any adult interaction/introduction to firearms. Parents probably only know what they see on TV. Kids have never hunted or held responsible for their actions and view it as a toy and are doing this as a "prank". If not a prank, then practice for something a little bit to the larger scale or degree?

After all, how many people have been hurt or killed by "its just a .22".

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