El Paso Walmart Shooting

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striker55
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Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#121

Post by striker55 » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:04 am

Of course it turns political, blaming Trump now.

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Charles L. Cotton
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Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#122

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:37 am

I very rarely respond to "what would you do" threads for several reasons. There are so many variables that make an accurate and compete response difficult if not impossible. I'm an attorney and I don't want people equating my response with legal advice. I was a police officer for 10 years and that may or may not have an impact on my instinct. There are other reasons, but you get the message.

I will make an exception to my standard policy of not getting into these types of threads. In a mass-shooting situation, I will do everything in my power to protect innocent lives. I will go to the sound of the gunfire and I will stop the carnage as quickly and decisively as possible. I will engage the shooter with my handgun regardless of the weapon he is using and regardless of his attire. Whether I live or die is in God's hands and have no problem with reality. If I were to do otherwise, I could not live with myself. I would have to grow a beard because I wouldn't be able to look at myself in a mirror.

I don't suffer from Walter Mitty Syndrome and I have no hero complex. I pray that I never am in a position to have to take the actions I described. But if I am, I will do what I believe the Lord and my personal code of conduct requires. I will not stand by or run while evil spreads death and destruction over innocent people. That, at least in part, is why were are where we are today.

Chas.

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carlson1
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Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#123

Post by carlson1 » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:42 am

:iagree: Once a LE blood always LE blood Mr. Cotton. This is exactly what I would do and if all possible head shots because so many of these thugs wear body armor like the man in Ohio. By the way the police who responded so quick to the thug in Ohio who was using an AR went against him with pistols. I have always said I could not live with myself if I had the ability to help in any situation. From LE to the ministry there is not a lot of difference. It is all helping others.

Just to mention Police take a lot of heat for things that sometimes they cannot control and not of these shootings you could not have asked any better of them.
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SQLGeek
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Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#124

Post by SQLGeek » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:45 am

If I were to do otherwise, I could not live with myself.
I feel the same way.
Psalm 91:2


philip964
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Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#125

Post by philip964 » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:56 am

SQLGeek wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:45 am
If I were to do otherwise, I could not live with myself.
I feel the same way.
I agree.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/deat ... s-shooting

Death toll rises to 22.

RIP.


LDP
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Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#126

Post by LDP » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:56 pm

oljames3 wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:31 am
Liberty wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:01 am
I've got a good woman, she does have some mobility issues. I'm getting too old to break in another. I'll fight to the death to protect her, but the Run, Hide and Fight model seems pretty sane when you're with someone you love.

I don't like the odds of my 13rnd 9mm 2.5 inch barrel against an AK47.
:iagree: My M&P M2.0 9mm 5inch carries 17+1 with 32 more on my belt. Don't like those odds either.
Our odds should not be based on how many rounds we carry in our mag and spare.
Getting into a gunfight against an assault rifle and surviving does not offer high odds for one of us.

That is why we need to use our noggin' and utilize tactical advantage and the surprise element. Get a clear shot from concealment and eliminate the threat with one or two shots if you can. If he is wearing a vest, you have no choice but aim for the melon on his shoulders.
But it's gotta be a surgical strike. Otherwise your odds of winning drop rapidly toward 0.

IOW, when your tool is inferior to your opponent's, you gotta make up for it with your skills.

And as always, train train train! In high-stress situations like these, you will be surprised how negatively our motor skills are affected by neurotoxins released into our bloodstream. So the more often you train and the more precise and quick you get, the better for you in an actual high-stress situation.


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Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#127

Post by Grayling813 » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:59 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:37 am
I very rarely respond to "what would you do" threads for several reasons. There are so many variables that make an accurate and compete response difficult if not impossible. I'm an attorney and I don't want people equating my response with legal advice. I was a police officer for 10 years and that may or may not have an impact on my instinct. There are other reasons, but you get the message.

I will make an exception to my standard policy of not getting into these types of threads. In a mass-shooting situation, I will do everything in my power to protect innocent lives. I will go to the sound of the gunfire and I will stop the carnage as quickly and decisively as possible. I will engage the shooter with my handgun regardless of the weapon he is using and regardless of his attire. Whether I live or die is in God's hands and have no problem with reality. If I were to do otherwise, I could not live with myself. I would have to grow a beard because I wouldn't be able to look at myself in a mirror.

I don't suffer from Walter Mitty Syndrome and I have no hero complex. I pray that I never am in a position to have to take the actions I described. But if I am, I will do what I believe the Lord and my personal code of conduct requires. I will not stand by or run while evil spreads death and destruction over innocent people. That, at least in part, is why were are where we are today.

Chas.
Well said, sir.
Sheep dogs always move to engage the wolf. My pastor said yesterday that you must be prepared every day to stand before the Shepherd, for you know not what day your time on earth has ended.
Keep asking the question, “Cui bono?” (For whose benefit?)
“Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves.”
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chasfm11
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Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#128

Post by chasfm11 » Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:02 pm

troglodyte wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:17 am
What must happen for us, as a society, to severally curtail these events is to have a much higher percentage of LTCs so when the guy walks in and open fires 3 or 4 individuals in the immediate area draw and hit him with 12 rounds. It's no different than the thinking behind Run, Hide, Fight and similar training. Overpower him with numbers. If 3 or 4 pistol wielders shot him at the first sign then these evil people would think twice about their actions. It would be over almost as fast as it began. There likely would be casualties but I venture the numbers would be a lot less. As a result I see the instances of mass shootings declining.

Undoubtedly this is a societal issue and one we must address but we need to meet this evil with firepower in the meantime.

(There's a lot more to it than this but I'm already late to work. You get the basic drift)
I've recently made known to some members of my church that I carry all the time. My intent was to surface others who might also be carrying or at least who have LTCs and have considered carrying at least for our services. Like you, I believe that meeting evil with overwhelming force is a great deterrent. I did manage to surface some people with LTCs and was surprised (appalled?) at their reactions.

I personally don't want to have to shoot at another person, let alone to deliver what could be a mortal wound. I would consider it the worst imaginable scenario if an innocent person where hit in the process. But the latter seems to be the reason that many do not carry and cannot imagine themselves defending a church full of innocent people - and that frankly appalls me. If I don't act, it is likely that a lot of innocent people are going to be hurt or killed. I've read Charles Cotton's post and agree that I could never look myself in the mirror again if that happened. It would be folly to believe that every action we might take comes without risks, only some of which we recognize at the moment. The El-Paso Wal-Mart, like many areas of our church, is possibly subject to over-penetration. The 4th rule of safety only applies to what you can actually see behind your target because there is no way to know what is behind a wall or a rack of merchandise beyond that sight.

I believe that the doctor's code of "do no harm" is behind a lot of individual decisions to not carry in crowded places or to not be willing to shoot if evil arrives. Until we can break that mind-set, the possibility of meeting an evil shooter with 3-4 armed responders is merely a wish.
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03Lightningrocks
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Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#129

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:05 pm

Grayling813 wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:59 pm
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:37 am
I very rarely respond to "what would you do" threads for several reasons. There are so many variables that make an accurate and compete response difficult if not impossible. I'm an attorney and I don't want people equating my response with legal advice. I was a police officer for 10 years and that may or may not have an impact on my instinct. There are other reasons, but you get the message.

I will make an exception to my standard policy of not getting into these types of threads. In a mass-shooting situation, I will do everything in my power to protect innocent lives. I will go to the sound of the gunfire and I will stop the carnage as quickly and decisively as possible. I will engage the shooter with my handgun regardless of the weapon he is using and regardless of his attire. Whether I live or die is in God's hands and have no problem with reality. If I were to do otherwise, I could not live with myself. I would have to grow a beard because I wouldn't be able to look at myself in a mirror.

I don't suffer from Walter Mitty Syndrome and I have no hero complex. I pray that I never am in a position to have to take the actions I described. But if I am, I will do what I believe the Lord and my personal code of conduct requires. I will not stand by or run while evil spreads death and destruction over innocent people. That, at least in part, is why were are where we are today.

Chas.
Well said, sir.
Sheep dogs always move to engage the wolf. My pastor said yesterday that you must be prepared every day to stand before the Shepherd, for you know not what day your time on earth has ended.
If I were alone I would respond in this manner. The question was while ones SO was with them. I simply could not picture risking my families lives. My main concern would still be to get my loved ones into a safer spot.


imkopaka
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Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#130

Post by imkopaka » Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:12 pm

03Lightningrocks wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:05 pm
Grayling813 wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:59 pm
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:37 am
I very rarely respond to "what would you do" threads for several reasons. There are so many variables that make an accurate and compete response difficult if not impossible. I'm an attorney and I don't want people equating my response with legal advice. I was a police officer for 10 years and that may or may not have an impact on my instinct. There are other reasons, but you get the message.

I will make an exception to my standard policy of not getting into these types of threads. In a mass-shooting situation, I will do everything in my power to protect innocent lives. I will go to the sound of the gunfire and I will stop the carnage as quickly and decisively as possible. I will engage the shooter with my handgun regardless of the weapon he is using and regardless of his attire. Whether I live or die is in God's hands and have no problem with reality. If I were to do otherwise, I could not live with myself. I would have to grow a beard because I wouldn't be able to look at myself in a mirror.

I don't suffer from Walter Mitty Syndrome and I have no hero complex. I pray that I never am in a position to have to take the actions I described. But if I am, I will do what I believe the Lord and my personal code of conduct requires. I will not stand by or run while evil spreads death and destruction over innocent people. That, at least in part, is why were are where we are today.

Chas.
Well said, sir.
Sheep dogs always move to engage the wolf. My pastor said yesterday that you must be prepared every day to stand before the Shepherd, for you know not what day your time on earth has ended.
If I were alone I would respond in this manner. The question was while ones SO was with them. I simply could not picture risking my families lives. My main concern would still be to get my loved ones into a safer spot.
Same here. While unencumbered by dependents, I would (and have in the past) run toward the gunfire. When my family is around it's a different story. My first responsibility is to keep them safe at all costs, and I can't do that if I run to danger before they have run away from it. And what I said about reassessing the situation to see my odds of victory was less directed at this specific scenario (one unarmored guy who has little idea how to properly hold a rifle) and more at the general idea of running toward gunfire; i.e. are there multiple combatants, do they have/use cover and concealment, do they have body armor that would dictate different shot placement, what level of tactical knowledge do they demonstrate, do they have other mission-capable equipment, etc. If I'm facing a mass shooter, my odds of helping go up quite a bit compared to an armored and trained team of assailants.
Never bring a knife to a gun fight.
Carry gun: Springfield XD Tactical .45


philip964
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Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#131

Post by philip964 » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:24 pm

https://news.yahoo.com/mexico-pursue-le ... 10109.html

Mexico legal action, 7 citizens murdered.

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SewTexas
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Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#132

Post by SewTexas » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:43 pm

while, as many have said, we don't honestly know what we would do until in the situation....I "think" it would depend on where in the store I was in relation to the shooter. If I'm far away, I'm probably going to stay far away and keep my gun out, stay protected and protect anyone in my little area, my "job" is to get home to my husband, to be alive when my parents and grown children need me. I'm not going to go seek danger. Now...If I'm in/near the area where the shooter is, that's a different story and I'm going to say that I would probably act differently.
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#133

Post by The Annoyed Man » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:54 pm

I also posted this in the "Dayton" thread, but this is a freaky coincidence. On the left, the Gilroy shooter. On the right p, the El Paso shooter.:

18C74750-FA2A-4806-A8FB-02AF85F51277.png
Click to embiggen


I’m not trying to suggest a connection, but this is weird.
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LDP
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Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#134

Post by LDP » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:55 pm

philip964 wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:24 pm
https://news.yahoo.com/mexico-pursue-le ... 10109.html

Mexico legal action, 7 citizens murdered.
“We consider this an act of terrorism against the Mexican American community and Mexican nationals in the United States,” Ebrard told reporters.
A) What about act of terrorism against all customers present on location?
B) This was not an act of terrorism against Mexico, per the shooter's note, but against all Hispanics.
C) How many Mexican nationals die every day from Mexican drug wars, drug use and other Mexican violence? But nobody's causing ruckus over that.
Theatrical much?

In the end, innocent people died, for no good reason. And the perpetrator is still alive, for no good reason.
Crime happened on this soil and the actor will be judged and punished on this soil as well, by law.

We will see many try to abuse this tragedy to push their own agenda, this is just the beginning.

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Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#135

Post by The Annoyed Man » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:58 pm

LDP wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:55 pm
philip964 wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:24 pm
https://news.yahoo.com/mexico-pursue-le ... 10109.html

Mexico legal action, 7 citizens murdered.
“We consider this an act of terrorism against the Mexican American community and Mexican nationals in the United States,” Ebrard told reporters.
A) What about act of terrorism against all customers present on location?
B) This was not an act of terrorism against Mexico, per the shooter's note, but against all Hispanics.
C) How many Mexican nationals die every day from Mexican drug wars, drug use and other Mexican violence? But nobody's causing ruckus over that.
Theatrical much?

In the end, innocent people died, for no good reason. And the perpetrator is still alive, for no good reason.
Crime happened on this soil and the actor will be judged and punished on this soil as well, by law.

We will see many try to abuse this tragedy to push their own agenda, this is just the beginning.
Somebody needs to show that idiot the Gonzales v. City of Castle Rock SCOTUS decision, which says that there is no duty for law enforcement to protect even Americans.....let alone foreign nationals.
• Give me Liberty or I'll get up and get it myself.
• I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.
• My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.
• Independent Minarchist.

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