GA: "Jogger" chased and murdered

Reports of actual crimes and investigations, not hypothetical situations.

Moderators: carlson1, Keith B

User avatar

johncanfield
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:04 pm
Location: Texas Hill Country

Re: GA: "Jogger" chased and murdered

#151

Post by johncanfield » Fri May 15, 2020 4:43 pm

srothstein wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:10 pm
The Annoyed Man wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 9:20 pm
Sometimes, the law is not moral.
I know this does not belong in this thread particularly, but I have to agree with this. Sometimes, the law is not only not moral, but actually immoral and must be resisted.

One of the hardest lessons I have learned in my life in law enforcement is that the law is not moral or immoral, not just or injust, not right or wrong, it is just the law. And that all courts are truly interested in, especially at the trial level, is the law. I do not want to side track this thread too far, but I will say that there is a lot of discussion in the police forums on whether police officers should enforce the law or do what is right.
We have been binge watching Blue Bloods (Amazon Prime video) and it really drives home the conundrum that police officers face, especially those on the street in deciding what action on their part honors their commitment to their badge and what is 'fair' and appropriate for those who they serve. I've always respected the thin blue line but after watching five seasons of Blue Bloods I appreciate the challenges they face in ambiguous situations. If anyone reading this hasn't wanted Blue Bloods, I highly recommend it. Sorry for feeding the off topic tangent :oops: .
LC9s, M&P 22, 9c, Sig P238-P239-P226-P365XL, 1911 clone

User avatar

oljames3
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 36
Posts: 3807
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:21 pm
Location: Elgin, Texas
Contact:

Re: GA: "Jogger" chased and murdered

#152

Post by oljames3 » Fri May 15, 2020 5:21 pm

Attorney Andrew Branca discusses the Arbery incident.
Ahmaud Arbery: Citizens Arrest, Pt. 2: May 15, 2020
https://www.facebook.com/LawofSelfDefen ... 355089277/
https://lawofselfdefense.com/blog/
  • Citizen's Arrest is irrelevant to this case.
  • There is zero evidence of the McMichael's threatening or using any force whatever prior to Arbery charging Travis McMichael.
LIVE INTERVIEW: Andrew Branca about Ahmaud Arbery | Rekieta Law
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sieuHViTQ4

Press release by Prof. John F. Banzhaf, III, The George Washington University Law School.
https://www.prlog.org/12822590-legal-is ... orted.html
https://www.valuewalk.com/2020/05/ahmed ... r-charges/
WASHINGTON, D.C. (April 15, 2020) - Although much of the public discussion about the shooting death of Ahmed Arbury has centered around whether the defendants were authorized to make a citizen's arrest, that legal issue is largely irrelevant to the most likely successful defense to the charge of murder which is Georgia's stand-your-ground self defense statute, argues public interest law professor John Banzhaf.
O. Lee James, III Captain, US Army (Retired 2012), Honorable Order of St. Barbara
2/19FA, 1st Cavalry Division 73-78; 56FA BDE (Pershing) 78-81
NRA Distinguished Life Member (Disabled Vet), TSRA, NAR L1

User avatar

03Lightningrocks
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 35
Posts: 9193
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: DFW area

Re: GA: "Jogger" chased and murdered

#153

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Fri May 15, 2020 5:56 pm

Once again. A person chasing you down hops out of his truck brandishing a shotgun is doing far more than simply minding his own business open carrying. We can pretend these two were simply minding their own business while exercising open carry but we all know that is not what happened. Arbery was being pursued and then was cornered by a guy following from behind and two guys blocking his path. He is the person who was exercising self defense. He has the presumption of innocence. He had no way of knowing why two rednecks in a truck were chasing him down. Nothing proves he entered that construction sight with the intentions of committing burglary. We shall see but my bet is that there will be two racist rednecks headed to prison when this is all over with. Looking at the pictures of them, they will be just fine after joining up with the Aryan brotherhood once behind bars. It is no stretch to believe a black man living in a state with a strong history of rednecks killing black men for every reason from looking at a white woman to walking in the wrong neighborhood would fear for his safety in this situation and attempt to defend himself.

User avatar

Allons
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 2208
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:03 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: GA: "Jogger" chased and murdered

#154

Post by Allons » Fri May 15, 2020 6:01 pm

03Lightningrocks wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 5:56 pm
Once again. A person chasing you down hops out of his truck brandishing a shotgun is doing far more than simply minding his own business open carrying. We can pretend these two were simply minding their own business while exercising open carry but we all know that is not what happened. Arbery was being pursued and then was cornered by a guy following from behind and two guys blocking his path. He is the person who was exercising self defense. He has the presumption of innocence. He had no way of knowing why two rednecks in a truck were chasing him down. Nothing proves he entered that construction sight with the intentions of committing burglary. We shall see but my bet is that there will be two racist rednecks headed to prison when this is all over with. Looking at the pictures of them, they will be just fine after joining up with the Aryan brotherhood once behind bars. It is no stretch to believe a black man living in a state with a strong history of rednecks killing black men for every reason from looking at a white woman to walking in the wrong neighborhood would fear for his safety in this situation and attempt to defend himself.
:iagree:
NRA Member
US Army 1988-1999


RottenApple
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 1684
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:19 pm

Re: GA: "Jogger" chased and murdered

#155

Post by RottenApple » Fri May 15, 2020 6:36 pm

03Lightningrocks wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 5:56 pm
Once again. A person chasing you down hops out of his truck brandishing a shotgun is doing far more than simply minding his own business open carrying. We can pretend these two were simply minding their own business while exercising open carry but we all know that is not what happened. Arbery was being pursued and then was cornered by a guy following from behind and two guys blocking his path. He is the person who was exercising self defense. He has the presumption of innocence. He had no way of knowing why two rednecks in a truck were chasing him down. Nothing proves he entered that construction sight with the intentions of committing burglary. We shall see but my bet is that there will be two racist rednecks headed to prison when this is all over with. Looking at the pictures of them, they will be just fine after joining up with the Aryan brotherhood once behind bars. It is no stretch to believe a black man living in a state with a strong history of rednecks killing black men for every reason from looking at a white woman to walking in the wrong neighborhood would fear for his safety in this situation and attempt to defend himself.
You must have watch a completely different video than I did.

bran·dish
/ˈbrandiSH/
verb
wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.
"a man leaped out brandishing a knife"


From the video, I didn't see anyone brandishing anything. "Holding" or "possessing" would be a better, and legal, adjectives. I see a man get out of the front seat of the pickup holding a shotgun; A perfectly legal act in Georgia (and Texas, for that matter).

And again, from the video, Arbery was neither pursued nor cornered. He could have turned around or gone in a tangental direction. No one was blocking his path in any way. He approached them. And then he initiated an assault by charging from the right-side of the pickup, across the front, and grappling for the gun. At least that is what the video is showing. From the evidence publicly available so far, there was no confrontational behavior or language from the McMichaels towards Arbery. Certainly nothing that rises to the level of threat where Arbery would need to defend himself against.

Your use of language in calling the McMichaels "rednecks", "racists", and saying that "they will be just fine after joining up with the Aryan brotherhood once behind bars" is evidence of your bias*; Not theirs. These things may or may not be true. I wouldn't know as I don't know the McMichaels or anyone involved in this case. All I can do is look at the evidence released so far and compare that with what the law actually says. That's all any of us should do. If\when new evidence comes out, I'll certainly reevaluate and revise my opinion as necessary. But for now, this is how it is and any non-evidence based opinions are just wishful thinking.

*NOTE: I'm not saying you're any of those things either; Just that you're obviously biased against the McMichaels for some reason. Why? I have no idea.

And once again I am not saying that what the [current] evidence shows that the McMichaels did was smart or prudent. I absolutely agree with everyone here who has said the exact opposite. And no, I would certainly never do that. But was it a criminal act? From the evidence so far, the answer would seem to be no. I look forward to any new\additional evidence.

User avatar

oljames3
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 36
Posts: 3807
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:21 pm
Location: Elgin, Texas
Contact:

Re: GA: "Jogger" chased and murdered

#156

Post by oljames3 » Fri May 15, 2020 7:06 pm

clarionite wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 1:41 pm
I wasn't saying it would be different because of Texas law. It would have been different had the jogger been a LTC holder exercising his rights.
More than likely the shotgun wielder would not be alive to stand trial.
Respectfully, I agree to disagree.
O. Lee James, III Captain, US Army (Retired 2012), Honorable Order of St. Barbara
2/19FA, 1st Cavalry Division 73-78; 56FA BDE (Pershing) 78-81
NRA Distinguished Life Member (Disabled Vet), TSRA, NAR L1

User avatar

03Lightningrocks
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 35
Posts: 9193
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: DFW area

Re: GA: "Jogger" chased and murdered

#157

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Fri May 15, 2020 7:19 pm

RottenApple wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 6:36 pm
03Lightningrocks wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 5:56 pm
Once again. A person chasing you down hops out of his truck brandishing a shotgun is doing far more than simply minding his own business open carrying. We can pretend these two were simply minding their own business while exercising open carry but we all know that is not what happened. Arbery was being pursued and then was cornered by a guy following from behind and two guys blocking his path. He is the person who was exercising self defense. He has the presumption of innocence. He had no way of knowing why two rednecks in a truck were chasing him down. Nothing proves he entered that construction sight with the intentions of committing burglary. We shall see but my bet is that there will be two racist rednecks headed to prison when this is all over with. Looking at the pictures of them, they will be just fine after joining up with the Aryan brotherhood once behind bars. It is no stretch to believe a black man living in a state with a strong history of rednecks killing black men for every reason from looking at a white woman to walking in the wrong neighborhood would fear for his safety in this situation and attempt to defend himself.
You must have watch a completely different video than I did.

bran·dish
/ˈbrandiSH/
verb
wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.
"a man leaped out brandishing a knife"


From the video, I didn't see anyone brandishing anything. "Holding" or "possessing" would be a better, and legal, adjectives. I see a man get out of the front seat of the pickup holding a shotgun; A perfectly legal act in Georgia (and Texas, for that matter).

And again, from the video, Arbery was neither pursued nor cornered. He could have turned around or gone in a tangental direction. No one was blocking his path in any way. He approached them. And then he initiated an assault by charging from the right-side of the pickup, across the front, and grappling for the gun. At least that is what the video is showing. From the evidence publicly available so far, there was no confrontational behavior or language from the McMichaels towards Arbery. Certainly nothing that rises to the level of threat where Arbery would need to defend himself against.

Your use of language in calling the McMichaels "rednecks", "racists", and saying that "they will be just fine after joining up with the Aryan brotherhood once behind bars" is evidence of your bias*; Not theirs. These things may or may not be true. I wouldn't know as I don't know the McMichaels or anyone involved in this case. All I can do is look at the evidence released so far and compare that with what the law actually says. That's all any of us should do. If\when new evidence comes out, I'll certainly reevaluate and revise my opinion as necessary. But for now, this is how it is and any non-evidence based opinions are just wishful thinking.

*NOTE: I'm not saying you're any of those things either; Just that you're obviously biased against the McMichaels for some reason. Why? I have no idea.

And once again I am not saying that what the [current] evidence shows that the McMichaels did was smart or prudent. I absolutely agree with everyone here who has said the exact opposite. And no, I would certainly never do that. But was it a criminal act? From the evidence so far, the answer would seem to be no. I look forward to any new\additional evidence.
If watching two guys create a scenario that forced a man to try and defend his life is biased, so be it. I will always fall on the side of what is right. Playing games with legal terminology does not make what these two did right. I bet you 2 donuts they go to prison.

Your definition for brandishing meets exactly what these two did. But then again, maybe I already knew the definition. ;-) They chased a man down the road. They then went past him and blocked his path, jumping out of the truck with a shotgun. If this is not a situation you would feel threatened, I can't think of any that would meet your qualification of being threatened. Personally, they would both have been shot if it were me being chased down the road. All of your arguments assume Arbery actually committed a felony. There is zero evidence he had any intention of burglary.
Last edited by 03Lightningrocks on Fri May 15, 2020 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.


clarionite
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:09 pm

Re: GA: "Jogger" chased and murdered

#158

Post by clarionite » Fri May 15, 2020 7:24 pm

oljames3 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 7:06 pm
clarionite wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 1:41 pm
I wasn't saying it would be different because of Texas law. It would have been different had the jogger been a LTC holder exercising his rights.
More than likely the shotgun wielder would not be alive to stand trial.
Respectfully, I agree to disagree.
You can disagree, but if someone that's not in a patrol car pulls their vehicle in front of me in an attempt to block me and then gets out with a shotgun I'm not sure I'll wait for much else before I draw.

User avatar

03Lightningrocks
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 35
Posts: 9193
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: DFW area

Re: GA: "Jogger" chased and murdered

#159

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Fri May 15, 2020 7:28 pm

clarionite wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 7:24 pm
oljames3 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 7:06 pm
clarionite wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 1:41 pm
I wasn't saying it would be different because of Texas law. It would have been different had the jogger been a LTC holder exercising his rights.
More than likely the shotgun wielder would not be alive to stand trial.
Respectfully, I agree to disagree.
You can disagree, but if someone that's not in a patrol car pulls their vehicle in front of me in an attempt to block me and then gets out with a shotgun I'm not sure I'll wait for much else before I draw.
Exactly!

User avatar

AndyC
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 9
Posts: 10765
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:34 pm
Location: Garland, TX

Re: GA: "Jogger" chased and murdered

#160

Post by AndyC » Fri May 15, 2020 7:48 pm

oljames3 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 11:50 am
AndyC wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 12:17 am
From my understanding, once a plea of self-defense is entered the burden is flipped - it's then on the defense to show that the actions were reasonable, etc, and all the prosecution has to do is sit back and pick that apart.
I am not a lawyer and did not sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night. Here is what the law firm Davis, Chapman & Wilder LLC said about burden of proof in criminal cases in GA on May 19, 2019.
Burden of Proof
In Georgia, the prosecutor’s office must prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. If you can cast any reasonable doubt on the government’s case, then the jury cannot legally convict you.
https://dcwattorneys.com/defenses-crimi ... s-georgia/
I understand that, and that's not what I'm talking about - I'm referring to the steps before conviction/acquittal and that's the "burden of production".
Remember Kitty Genovese

Image

Amateurs skip safety-checks - pros don't.
Preferred Travel Agent - 72 Virgins Dating Club, Iraq
There's nothing quite like the offer of 230 grains to a man's chest to remind him of his manners


parabelum
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 14
Posts: 2049
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:22 pm

Re: GA: "Jogger" chased and murdered

#161

Post by parabelum » Fri May 15, 2020 8:07 pm

03Lightningrocks wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 7:19 pm
RottenApple wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 6:36 pm
03Lightningrocks wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 5:56 pm
Once again. A person chasing you down hops out of his truck brandishing a shotgun is doing far more than simply minding his own business open carrying. We can pretend these two were simply minding their own business while exercising open carry but we all know that is not what happened. Arbery was being pursued and then was cornered by a guy following from behind and two guys blocking his path. He is the person who was exercising self defense. He has the presumption of innocence. He had no way of knowing why two rednecks in a truck were chasing him down. Nothing proves he entered that construction sight with the intentions of committing burglary. We shall see but my bet is that there will be two racist rednecks headed to prison when this is all over with. Looking at the pictures of them, they will be just fine after joining up with the Aryan brotherhood once behind bars. It is no stretch to believe a black man living in a state with a strong history of rednecks killing black men for every reason from looking at a white woman to walking in the wrong neighborhood would fear for his safety in this situation and attempt to defend himself.
You must have watch a completely different video than I did.

bran·dish
/ˈbrandiSH/
verb
wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.
"a man leaped out brandishing a knife"


From the video, I didn't see anyone brandishing anything. "Holding" or "possessing" would be a better, and legal, adjectives. I see a man get out of the front seat of the pickup holding a shotgun; A perfectly legal act in Georgia (and Texas, for that matter).

And again, from the video, Arbery was neither pursued nor cornered. He could have turned around or gone in a tangental direction. No one was blocking his path in any way. He approached them. And then he initiated an assault by charging from the right-side of the pickup, across the front, and grappling for the gun. At least that is what the video is showing. From the evidence publicly available so far, there was no confrontational behavior or language from the McMichaels towards Arbery. Certainly nothing that rises to the level of threat where Arbery would need to defend himself against.

Your use of language in calling the McMichaels "rednecks", "racists", and saying that "they will be just fine after joining up with the Aryan brotherhood once behind bars" is evidence of your bias*; Not theirs. These things may or may not be true. I wouldn't know as I don't know the McMichaels or anyone involved in this case. All I can do is look at the evidence released so far and compare that with what the law actually says. That's all any of us should do. If\when new evidence comes out, I'll certainly reevaluate and revise my opinion as necessary. But for now, this is how it is and any non-evidence based opinions are just wishful thinking.

*NOTE: I'm not saying you're any of those things either; Just that you're obviously biased against the McMichaels for some reason. Why? I have no idea.

And once again I am not saying that what the [current] evidence shows that the McMichaels did was smart or prudent. I absolutely agree with everyone here who has said the exact opposite. And no, I would certainly never do that. But was it a criminal act? From the evidence so far, the answer would seem to be no. I look forward to any new\additional evidence.
If watching two guys create a scenario that forced a man to try and defend his life is biased, so be it. I will always fall on the side of what is right. Playing games with legal terminology does not make what these two did right. I bet you 2 donuts they go to prison.

Your definition for brandishing meets exactly what these two did. But then again, maybe I already knew the definition. ;-) They chased a man down the road. They then went past him and blocked his path, jumping out of the truck with a shotgun. If this is not a situation you would feel threatened, I can't think of any that would meet your qualification of being threatened. Personally, they would both have been shot if it were me being chased down the road. All of your arguments assume Arbery actually committed a felony. There is zero evidence he had any intention of burglary.
This man had every right to defend himself against an aggressor pointing a gun at him. To him, it was a fight for his life. Idiots got lucky that he was not armed. Different story when you have lead flying back at you. Cowards. Darn cowards at the very least.
Credendo Vides

User avatar

The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 8
Posts: 25643
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: GA: "Jogger" chased and murdered

#162

Post by The Annoyed Man » Fri May 15, 2020 8:11 pm

srothstein wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:10 pm
The Annoyed Man wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 9:20 pm
Sometimes, the law is not moral.
I know this does not belong in this thread particularly, but I have to agree with this. Sometimes, the law is not only not moral, but actually immoral and must be resisted.

One of the hardest lessons I have learned in my life in law enforcement is that the law is not moral or immoral, not just or injust, not right or wrong, it is just the law. And that all courts are truly interested in, especially at the trial level, is the law. I do not want to side track this thread too far, but I will say that there is a lot of discussion in the police forums on whether police officers should enforce the law or do what is right.
I can appreciate that for many, that must be a very difficult decision. I hope it’s not so difficult that it prevents doing what’s right.
• Give me Liberty or I'll get up and get it myself.
• I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.
• My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.
• Independent Minarchist.


lj98
Junior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 7:25 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX

Re: GA: "Jogger" chased and murdered

#163

Post by lj98 » Fri May 15, 2020 9:37 pm

RottenApple wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 6:36 pm
03Lightningrocks wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 5:56 pm
Once again. A person chasing you down hops out of his truck brandishing a shotgun is doing far more than simply minding his own business open carrying. We can pretend these two were simply minding their own business while exercising open carry but we all know that is not what happened. Arbery was being pursued and then was cornered by a guy following from behind and two guys blocking his path. He is the person who was exercising self defense. He has the presumption of innocence. He had no way of knowing why two rednecks in a truck were chasing him down. Nothing proves he entered that construction sight with the intentions of committing burglary. We shall see but my bet is that there will be two racist rednecks headed to prison when this is all over with. Looking at the pictures of them, they will be just fine after joining up with the Aryan brotherhood once behind bars. It is no stretch to believe a black man living in a state with a strong history of rednecks killing black men for every reason from looking at a white woman to walking in the wrong neighborhood would fear for his safety in this situation and attempt to defend himself.
You must have watch a completely different video than I did.

bran·dish
/ˈbrandiSH/
verb
wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.
"a man leaped out brandishing a knife"


From the video, I didn't see anyone brandishing anything. "Holding" or "possessing" would be a better, and legal, adjectives. I see a man get out of the front seat of the pickup holding a shotgun; A perfectly legal act in Georgia (and Texas, for that matter).

And again, from the video, Arbery was neither pursued nor cornered. He could have turned around or gone in a tangental direction. No one was blocking his path in any way. He approached them. And then he initiated an assault by charging from the right-side of the pickup, across the front, and grappling for the gun. At least that is what the video is showing. From the evidence publicly available so far, there was no confrontational behavior or language from the McMichaels towards Arbery. Certainly nothing that rises to the level of threat where Arbery would need to defend himself against.

Your use of language in calling the McMichaels "rednecks", "racists", and saying that "they will be just fine after joining up with the Aryan brotherhood once behind bars" is evidence of your bias*; Not theirs. These things may or may not be true. I wouldn't know as I don't know the McMichaels or anyone involved in this case. All I can do is look at the evidence released so far and compare that with what the law actually says. That's all any of us should do. If\when new evidence comes out, I'll certainly reevaluate and revise my opinion as necessary. But for now, this is how it is and any non-evidence based opinions are just wishful thinking.

*NOTE: I'm not saying you're any of those things either; Just that you're obviously biased against the McMichaels for some reason. Why? I have no idea.

And once again I am not saying that what the [current] evidence shows that the McMichaels did was smart or prudent. I absolutely agree with everyone here who has said the exact opposite. And no, I would certainly never do that. But was it a criminal act? From the evidence so far, the answer would seem to be no. I look forward to any new\additional evidence.
By their own admission they were indeed pursuing him. I’m sorry they said it was “hot pursuit.” I guess the Duke boys got away so they weren’t going to let this guy go. So, they followed him, and then passed him to block his path and then got out of their truck with their firearms. As to who initiated the assault I’d say the McMichaels clearly did so as a result of their actions in which they:
Commits an act which places another in reasonable apprehension of immediately receiving a violent injury.

But we always have to come to the defense of the gun owners, even when they eff up.

User avatar

oljames3
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 36
Posts: 3807
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:21 pm
Location: Elgin, Texas
Contact:

Re: GA: "Jogger" chased and murdered

#164

Post by oljames3 » Fri May 15, 2020 10:12 pm

AndyC wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 7:48 pm
oljames3 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 11:50 am
AndyC wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 12:17 am
From my understanding, once a plea of self-defense is entered the burden is flipped - it's then on the defense to show that the actions were reasonable, etc, and all the prosecution has to do is sit back and pick that apart.
I am not a lawyer and did not sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night. Here is what the law firm Davis, Chapman & Wilder LLC said about burden of proof in criminal cases in GA on May 19, 2019.
Burden of Proof
In Georgia, the prosecutor’s office must prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. If you can cast any reasonable doubt on the government’s case, then the jury cannot legally convict you.
https://dcwattorneys.com/defenses-crimi ... s-georgia/
I understand that, and that's not what I'm talking about - I'm referring to the steps before conviction/acquittal and that's the "burden of production".
I am still not a lawyer. All I know about the law comes from talking with lawyers and my own reading. So, I will rely on the Cornell Law School.
Burden of Proof
Overview
Generally, describes the standard that a party seeking to prove a fact in court must satisfy to have that fact legally established. There are different standards in different circumstances. For example, in criminal cases, the burden of proving the defendant’s guilt is on the prosecution, and they must establish that fact beyond a reasonable doubt. In civil cases, the plaintiff has the burden of proving his case by a preponderance of the evidence. A "preponderance of the evidence" and "beyond a reasonable doubt" are different standards, requiring different amounts of proof.

The burden of proof is often said to consist of two distinct but related concepts: the burden of production, and the burden of persuasion.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/burden_of_proof
O. Lee James, III Captain, US Army (Retired 2012), Honorable Order of St. Barbara
2/19FA, 1st Cavalry Division 73-78; 56FA BDE (Pershing) 78-81
NRA Distinguished Life Member (Disabled Vet), TSRA, NAR L1


Topic author
philip964
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 54
Posts: 11398
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:30 pm

Re: GA: "Jogger" chased and murdered

#165

Post by philip964 » Sat May 16, 2020 12:00 am

Homeowner who may not move into the house because of threats has made some new statements.

He seems to think the video shows the man going to where there was a faucet for water.

He also says that there were a number of visitors on video to the house beside this one man.

It apparently included a number of children.

Post Reply

Return to “The Crime Blotter”