SB299 to Governor

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CJD
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SB299 to Governor

#1

Post by CJD » Thu May 09, 2013 6:36 pm

Can anyone clarify what the language may allow? "Displays the handgun in plain view of another person in a public place.
Does this possibly allow open carry unless in a "public place"? For instance, like someone had referenced before, "BBQ guns at private parties."


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Re: SB299 to Governor

#2

Post by K.Mooneyham » Thu May 09, 2013 7:22 pm

Well, here is one scenario that has been discussed a time or two on this forum that seemingly shouldn't be a problem under the new law: You go to a friends house carrying your newly purchased pistol. You want to show it to him. Previously, it was taken as one opinion that Texas Penal Code made that illegal, even if you weren't in a situation to be caught doing it. Now, the way I read the new language, it is no longer illegal to do so. I cannot see how your friend's house, indoors, could be considered a "public place".


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Re: SB299 to Governor

#3

Post by TrueFlog » Thu May 09, 2013 10:32 pm

That's an interesting perspective. Are there any other parts of the code that deal with failure to conceal, intentional display, etc.? Keep in mind that failure to conceal (even if intentional) if only a crime if the Penal Code says it is. Is there any part of the code that makes it a crime to fail to conceal in a non-public place? Suppose I were to OC at a friend's house - what statue (if any) would i be violating? What section of the PC could I be charged with breaking?


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Re: SB299 to Governor

#4

Post by Rrash » Thu May 09, 2013 11:59 pm

How about this scenario. You meet a friend/co-worker at a restaurant. When you get there, you see a 51% or a valid 30.06 sign. You return back to your vehicle to secure your weapon. In the process of transferring the firearm(s) to your storage spot, someone happens to walk by close enough to see what is in your hand. You have now unintentionally displayed your handgun in a public place, but not in a way meant to cause alarm. SB 299 will clarify the wording of the law under these circumstances, assuming the well-intentioned passer-by calls the police.

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Re: SB299 to Governor

#5

Post by Keith B » Fri May 10, 2013 8:51 am

Rrash wrote:How about this scenario. You meet a friend/co-worker at a restaurant. When you get there, you see a 51% or a valid 30.06 sign. You return back to your vehicle to secure your weapon. In the process of transferring the firearm(s) to your storage spot, someone happens to walk by close enough to see what is in your hand. You have now unintentionally displayed your handgun in a public place, but not in a way meant to cause alarm. SB 299 will clarify the wording of the law under these circumstances, assuming the well-intentioned passer-by calls the police.
It might, but I think if you are in a public locaiton you should not be haphazard about still trying to conceal it when transfering from body to hidden in the vehicle.
Keith
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Re: SB299 to Governor

#6

Post by Keith B » Fri May 10, 2013 8:54 am

CJD wrote:Can anyone clarify what the language may allow? "Displays the handgun in plain view of another person in a public place.
Does this possibly allow open carry unless in a "public place"? For instance, like someone had referenced before, "BBQ guns at private parties."
BBQ'ing in Texas is a sport. Maybe we really claim the exemption that we are participating in a sporting event. However, you need to watch it if your cooking is so good it moves you in the the porffesional sporting event mode. :biggrinjester:
Keith
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Re: SB299 to Governor

#7

Post by 2firfun50 » Fri May 10, 2013 9:52 am

Fancy holsters/grips may not fare well when exposed to a hot grill or BBQ sauce.

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Re: SB299 to Governor

#8

Post by Keith B » Fri May 10, 2013 10:01 am

2firfun50 wrote:Fancy holsters/grips may not fare well when exposed to a hot grill or BBQ sauce.
BBQ sauce = Leather dye ;-)
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Re: SB299 to Governor

#9

Post by CJD » Fri May 10, 2013 10:17 am

TrueFlog wrote:That's an interesting perspective. Are there any other parts of the code that deal with failure to conceal, intentional display, etc.? Keep in mind that failure to conceal (even if intentional) if only a crime if the Penal Code says it is. Is there any part of the code that makes it a crime to fail to conceal in a non-public place? Suppose I were to OC at a friend's house - what statue (if any) would i be violating? What section of the PC could I be charged with breaking?
It seems there is not one. I'm curious, what is the difference between intentionally "failing to conceal" and displaying? They seem the same to me, unless they are defined specifically in the penal code.

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Re: SB299 to Governor

#10

Post by Keith B » Fri May 10, 2013 10:38 am

CJD wrote:
TrueFlog wrote:That's an interesting perspective. Are there any other parts of the code that deal with failure to conceal, intentional display, etc.? Keep in mind that failure to conceal (even if intentional) if only a crime if the Penal Code says it is. Is there any part of the code that makes it a crime to fail to conceal in a non-public place? Suppose I were to OC at a friend's house - what statue (if any) would i be violating? What section of the PC could I be charged with breaking?
It seems there is not one. I'm curious, what is the difference between intentionally "failing to conceal" and displaying? They seem the same to me, unless they are defined specifically in the penal code.
Let's look at the two definitions from Mr. Webster.
con·ceal/kənˈsil/ Show Spelled [kuhn-seel] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1. to hide; withdraw or remove from observation; cover or keep from sight: He concealed the gun under his coat.
2. to keep secret; to prevent or avoid disclosing or divulging: to conceal one's identity by using a false name.
dis·play/dɪˈspleɪ/ Show Spelled [dih-spley] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1. to show or exhibit; make visible: to display a sign.
2. to reveal; betray: to display fear.
3. to unfold; open out; spread out: to display a sail.
4. to show ostentatiously; flaunt.
The difference I would point out is displaying is more indicative of the act of trying to show something, where concealing is the act of covering it up. So, if you fail to cover something then you failed to conceal. However, if before you display the item, you would have to be trying to show it. i do think the change in the word will make it the the statute a little more defined on intent.
Keith
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Re: SB299 to Governor

#11

Post by CJD » Fri May 10, 2013 11:22 am

Possibly, but to me, it seems that if you are intentionally not concealing, then you are purposefully showing it, which seems like display to me. If you intentionally do not conceal, your intent is for it to be visible.
I understand failing to conceal, my problem is with the word intentionally.


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Re: SB299 to Governor

#12

Post by 2firfun50 » Fri May 10, 2013 11:44 am

CJD wrote:Possibly, but to me, it seems that if you are intentionally not concealing, then you are purposefully showing it, which seems like display to me. If you intentionally do not conceal, your intent is for it to be visible.
I understand failing to conceal, my problem is with the word intentionally.
In my little brain, we are required to "carry concealed", so we must have left the house with the proper "intention" and dress to be concealed. If we did not, then we "intentionally" displayed. When the wind blows the cover garment open inadvertently "displaying", no crime has been committed as we did not "intentionally" display. We can restore concealment and go about our business.

If we are in a situation where force, or possibly deadly force is addresses in the statute, and we "intentionally" display to deal with the situation, no crime has been committed as we're justified.

Unless I get better direction, that is how I will address it to my students.

Just my opinion, and no, I won't volunteer to be a test case.


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Re: SB299 to Governor

#13

Post by 2firfun50 » Fri May 10, 2013 11:46 am

2firfun50 wrote:
CJD wrote:Possibly, but to me, it seems that if you are intentionally not concealing, then you are purposefully showing it, which seems like display to me. If you intentionally do not conceal, your intent is for it to be visible.
I understand failing to conceal, my problem is with the word intentionally.
In my little brain, we are required to "carry concealed", so we must have left the house with the proper "intention" and dress to be concealed. If we did not, then we "intentionally" displayed. When the wind blows the cover garment open inadvertently "displaying", no crime has been committed as we did not "intentionally" display. We can restore concealment and go about our business.

If we are in a situation where force, or possibly deadly force is addresses in the statute, and we "intentionally" display to deal with the situation, no crime has been committed as we're justified.

Unless I get better direction, that is how I will address it to my students.

Just my opinion, and no, I won't volunteer to be a test case.
CJD, please don't take my post the wrong way. I'm agreeing with you.


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Re: SB299 to Governor

#14

Post by CJD » Fri May 10, 2013 12:40 pm

Yeah. It seems to me the display wording won't change much as opposed to just adding "intentional", but the "public place" could have a pretty good effect.


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Re: SB299 to Governor

#15

Post by JKTex » Fri May 10, 2013 12:41 pm

2firfun50 wrote:In my little brain, we are required to "carry concealed", so we must have left the house with the proper "intention" and dress to be concealed. If we did not, then we "intentionally" displayed. When the wind blows the cover garment open inadvertently "displaying", no crime has been committed as we did not "intentionally" display. We can restore concealment and go about our business.

If we are in a situation where force, or possibly deadly force is addresses in the statute, and we "intentionally" display to deal with the situation, no crime has been committed as we're justified.

Unless I get better direction, that is how I will address it to my students.

Just my opinion, and no, I won't volunteer to be a test case.
I must have the same tiny brain syndrome; that's exactly how I read and understand it. It's funny how much better tiny brains are than big ones most of the time. :mrgreen:

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