New 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification

General training discussions and class reviews.

Moderators: carlson1, Crossfire

User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 9
Posts: 6280
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

New 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification

#1

Post by Paladin »

Looks like there were some updates to the FBI Handgun Qualification in 2019:

Shooting the New 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification

Greg Ellifritz: The New FBI Qualification Course

This is the previous course of fire:

2014 Pistol Qual Course PDF

I had tried it out using a reduced target: FREE 2.5 times reduced QIT-99 Target

Honestly I thought the qualification was pretty easy to score "instructor". I do like the draws from concealment, but the time and accuracy requirements were not hard. Movement was only at 25 yards.

Greg Ellifritz says its a decent benchmark of competency and an evaluation to help identify areas where you may need further practice. I agree with him.

Anyone else try this? What did you think?
JOIN NRA TODAY!, NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life, SAF, FPC, VCDL Member
LTC/SSC Instructor, NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. -Thomas Jefferson

Ruark
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1789
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:11 pm

Re: New 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification

#2

Post by Ruark »

Are you required to use that stance?
-Ruark
User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 9
Posts: 6280
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

Re: New 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification

#3

Post by Paladin »

Ruark wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:55 am Are you required to use that stance?
No.
JOIN NRA TODAY!, NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life, SAF, FPC, VCDL Member
LTC/SSC Instructor, NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. -Thomas Jefferson
User avatar

Beiruty
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 9655
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:22 pm
Location: Allen, Texas

Re: New 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification

#4

Post by Beiruty »

Sharp shooter should not have a problem, If you Qualified with FBI before, it should be standard fare.
I scored 90% or so the last time, I did it. On a bad day, I would score about 80%

Do not be afraid. Go shoot.
Beiruty,
United we stand, dispersed we falter
2014: NRA Endowment lifetime member
User avatar

oljames3
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 5350
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:21 pm
Location: Elgin, Texas
Contact:

Re: New 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification

#5

Post by oljames3 »

I shot both the old and the new at KR Training using my S&W M&P M2.0 9mm 5inch in a Safariland 7TS ALS. The most challenging was, indeed, the single-handed shooting. Passed both times with 90+. On the new test, I had spent more time training for 20 and 25 yard shots. Passed with 98.

While its nice to be able to say I've passed the FBI qualification and the Austin PD qualification, I find that KR Training's "Three Seconds or Less" is closer to what we, as civilians, might encounter. https://www.krtraining.com/IPSC/Informa ... OrLess.htm

Karl Rehn and John Daub have done extensive research and study in why folks don't train, how to develop effective training, and minimum competency. They have coauthored a book on the subject.

Beyond the One Percent https://blog.krtraining.com/beyond-the- ... nt-part-1/

Minimum Competency https://blog.hsoi.com/2013/07/11/minimu ... ve-pistol/

Strategies and Standards for Defensive Handgun Training https://blog.krtraining.com/strategies- ... ning-book/
O. Lee James, III Captain, US Army (Retired 2012), Honorable Order of St. Barbara
2/19FA, 1st Cavalry Division 73-78; 56FA BDE (Pershing) 78-81
NRA, NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Instructor, Rangemaster Certified, GOA, TSRA, NAR L1
User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 9
Posts: 6280
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

Re: New 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification

#6

Post by Paladin »

oljames3 wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:35 am
While its nice to be able to say I've passed the FBI qualification and the Austin PD qualification, I find that KR Training's "Three Seconds or Less" is closer to what we, as civilians, might encounter. https://www.krtraining.com/IPSC/Informa ... OrLess.htm
Agree! Passing the FBI qualification is nice, but KR's Three Seconds or Less drill is necessary... and not just for civilians.
JOIN NRA TODAY!, NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life, SAF, FPC, VCDL Member
LTC/SSC Instructor, NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. -Thomas Jefferson
User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 9
Posts: 6280
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

Re: New 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification

#7

Post by Paladin »

I tried out the 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification. The timing on the 25 yard shooting was noticeably tighter, but honestly I didn't feel it was much more difficult. Fewer rounds are fired at 15 and 25 yards. I went from 93 to 94% on the new qual. I may try it once more to see if I can get a perfect score.
JOIN NRA TODAY!, NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life, SAF, FPC, VCDL Member
LTC/SSC Instructor, NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. -Thomas Jefferson
User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 9
Posts: 6280
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

Re: New 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification

#8

Post by Paladin »

It had been about a year since I ran the FBI Handgun qual. Its a good yardstick for competency with fundamental concealed carry skills and the qualification required by our system for students to earn their Yellow belt. Clean run until the 15 and 25 yard stages (1 outside on each), but still hit instructor standard:
IMG_6855(1).JPG
JOIN NRA TODAY!, NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life, SAF, FPC, VCDL Member
LTC/SSC Instructor, NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. -Thomas Jefferson
User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 9
Posts: 6280
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

Re: New 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification

#9

Post by Paladin »


Williams says the each student puts about 4,000 rounds through the 9mm Glock during training. The Remington 870P gets anywhere from 120-150 shells cycled and the Colt pattern carbine (with training guns sporting a snazzy yellow M4 butt while another gun has a Magpul CTR) runs about 620 to establish proficiency.
Interesting that they run 4,000 rounds of pistol for training.
JOIN NRA TODAY!, NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life, SAF, FPC, VCDL Member
LTC/SSC Instructor, NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. -Thomas Jefferson
User avatar

Rafe
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 1981
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Htown

Re: New 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification

#10

Post by Rafe »

Paladin wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:11 am
Williams says the each student puts about 4,000 rounds through the 9mm Glock during training. The Remington 870P gets anywhere from 120-150 shells cycled and the Colt pattern carbine (with training guns sporting a snazzy yellow M4 butt while another gun has a Magpul CTR) runs about 620 to establish proficiency.
Interesting that they run 4,000 rounds of pistol for training.
I watched the video in part to get a clarification on whether this represented qualification evolutions or actual instruction. Seems to be the latter. Back in the day when ammo was readily available and reasonably priced, I took classes where 1,000 rounds of pistol and 500 rounds of carbine ammo were expended in a two-day weekend, and several of the hours during the weekend were lecture and non-live-fire instruction. I did a little searching for this, and: "To demonstrate proficiency, trainees must successfully qualify with both the pistol and carbine, and participate in live-fire familiarization with the shotgun. The present firearms curriculum is comprised of 28 sessions totaling 110 hours of instruction, and includes approximately 5,000 rounds of ammunition."

Just doing back-of-the-napkin estimates, I'd say the training I'm familiar with amounted to about 125 rounds per hour of actual live-fire work. Figure it may have been closer to 100. If new agents are going through 5,000 rounds at Quantico, that would work out to between 40 and 50 hours of live-fire. Which, with 110 hours of instruction, I guess is pretty proportionate. Especially if the large majority of newly-minted agents are coming from previous military or law enforcement backgrounds and have some commensurate training under their belts.

At first glance, it just seemed--to me--to be a pretty minimal amount for green recruits who truly may be new to firearms.
“Be ready; now is the beginning of happenings.”
― Robert E. Howard, Swords of Shahrazar
User avatar

Rafe
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 1981
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Htown

Re: New 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification

#11

Post by Rafe »

Paladin wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:11 am Interesting that they run 4,000 rounds of pistol for training.
Oh, and a P.S. While I was searching, this USA Today article from January 2013 came up: FBI focuses firearms training on close-quarters combat

FBI focuses firearms training on close-quarters combat
"The new training protocols were formally implemented last January after a review of nearly 200 shootings involving FBI agents during a 17-year period. The analysis found that 75% of the incidents involved suspects who were within 3 yards of agents when shots were exchanged. The move represents a dramatic shift for the agency, which for more than three decades has relied on long-range marksmanship training."
Seems to reasonably explain the heavy emphasis now on handgun skills and the 15% ratio of carbine to pistol rounds fired.
“Be ready; now is the beginning of happenings.”
― Robert E. Howard, Swords of Shahrazar
User avatar

troglodyte
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 1314
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:16 pm
Location: Hockley County
Contact:

Re: New 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification

#12

Post by troglodyte »

A well known trainer told us in a class one time that the FBI test was little more than a sobriety test. We took it so we could say we passed it.
Talon Firearms Training
Instructor - License To Carry, School Safety, First Responder: Texas DPS, Certified Instructor: Rangemasters/Tom Givens
NRA Instructor - Basic Pistol, Personal Protection in the Home, Personal Protection Outside the Home, Range Safety Officer
Stop The Bleed Instructor
User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 9
Posts: 6280
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

Re: New 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification

#13

Post by Paladin »

troglodyte wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:06 pm A well known trainer told us in a class one time that the FBI test was little more than a sobriety test. We took it so we could say we passed it.
If that's true, why does Tom Givens make it part of his instructor qualification course? It's not a perfect test, but I would say better than a lot of them (Texas DPS qualification being one elephant in the room)
JOIN NRA TODAY!, NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life, SAF, FPC, VCDL Member
LTC/SSC Instructor, NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. -Thomas Jefferson
User avatar

oljames3
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 5350
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:21 pm
Location: Elgin, Texas
Contact:

Re: New 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification

#14

Post by oljames3 »

Paladin wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:17 am
troglodyte wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:06 pm A well known trainer told us in a class one time that the FBI test was little more than a sobriety test. We took it so we could say we passed it.
If that's true, why does Tom Givens make it part of his instructor qualification course? It's not a perfect test, but I would say better than a lot of them (Texas DPS qualification being one elephant in the room)
I have passed the new FBI test, several times, as administered by Karl Rehn and again by Tom Givens. Givens does, indeed, have the achieving of 90% or higher (instructor level) on the FBI test as one of the three requirements for successful completion of the Rangemaster Instructor Development Course, of which I am a graduate. It is more than a "sobriety test" for most of us.

To understand the difficulty of a drill or test, I suggest reading Strategies and Standards for Defensive Handgun Training, by Karl Rehn and John Daub.
Section 3, Drills, includes guidance in how to calculate the relative difficulty level of any handgun drill, comparisons and analysis of many well known standard courses of fire, discussion of the development of the Three Seconds or Less test and KRT-2 target, and a recommended list of 10 drills as a progression of performance level and skill development any shooter or trainer could use to define standards for every level of handgun proficiency.
https://blog.krtraining.com/strategies- ... ning-book/
O. Lee James, III Captain, US Army (Retired 2012), Honorable Order of St. Barbara
2/19FA, 1st Cavalry Division 73-78; 56FA BDE (Pershing) 78-81
NRA, NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Instructor, Rangemaster Certified, GOA, TSRA, NAR L1
User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 9
Posts: 6280
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

Re: New 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification

#15

Post by Paladin »

oljames3 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:34 pm
Paladin wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:17 am
troglodyte wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:06 pm A well known trainer told us in a class one time that the FBI test was little more than a sobriety test. We took it so we could say we passed it.
If that's true, why does Tom Givens make it part of his instructor qualification course? It's not a perfect test, but I would say better than a lot of them (Texas DPS qualification being one elephant in the room)
I have passed the new FBI test, several times, as administered by Karl Rehn and again by Tom Givens. Givens does, indeed, have the achieving of 90% or higher (instructor level) on the FBI test as one of the three requirements for successful completion of the Rangemaster Instructor Development Course, of which I am a graduate. It is more than a "sobriety test" for most of us.

To understand the difficulty of a drill or test, I suggest reading Strategies and Standards for Defensive Handgun Training, by Karl Rehn and John Daub.
Section 3, Drills, includes guidance in how to calculate the relative difficulty level of any handgun drill, comparisons and analysis of many well known standard courses of fire, discussion of the development of the Three Seconds or Less test and KRT-2 target, and a recommended list of 10 drills as a progression of performance level and skill development any shooter or trainer could use to define standards for every level of handgun proficiency.
https://blog.krtraining.com/strategies- ... ning-book/
I think Karl's book is well on it's way to becoming a classic every instructor should own. Karl ranks the FBI handgun qual in the "More Challenging" category (70%+ GM). #9 of the 10 drills. In my assessment The FBI Qual's weakest point is not testing shooting from retention (inside 3 yards).
JOIN NRA TODAY!, NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life, SAF, FPC, VCDL Member
LTC/SSC Instructor, NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. -Thomas Jefferson
Post Reply

Return to “General”