Campus carry would cost Texas colleges millions

[nightmare69]

I had lunch with my son yesterday who is a 19 year old freshman at U of H and lives on campus. We've talked about various issues before around carrying, but we talked very specifically about this issue yesterday. His take was interesting I thought.

1. He is against having guns in the dorms because of potential access by someone not qualified to handle a firearm. He said the stress of college has been rough on him and he's handled it better than most (he is a certified EMT so has more training in stressful situations than most 19 year olds). His concern isn't necessarily mass shootings but also includes suicides. he also realizes that if someone wants to die badly enough they will find a way, but a gun may make action on a bad decision more likely.

2. He is upset that the security guards and even many of the campus police are unarmed. They are essentially useless for a bad situation. In the robbery that happened earlier this week (gun point outside the dorm), a security guard saw the entire thing. From a distance he didn't realize what he was seeing. But even if he did, would he have been able to do anything against an armed robber? He also said that the girls that were robbed made several bad decisions that made them targets. It wasn't entirely a BGWAG situation.

3. He also thinks that CHL's who come onto campus should be able to carry (students, teachers, employees, parents, guests, etc). They can carry everywhere else, and currently are, without the 'wild west' scenario. So why not let them carry on campus.

In his mind, keep them out of student housing and it's fine. He thinks all security and police need to be trained and carry.

My son has always been a "good kid". He's very level headed and dealt with some severe issues at home at a young age, which has made him who he is today. Even though he has a lot to learn, I can say I truly value his opinion on many issues. If he says, "in the dorms would be a bad idea", he knows far better than I. But he also says, "We need protection everywhere else. CHLs should be allowed to carry."

After hearing his view point, I don't believe it's due to "liberal" influences, but from what he lives everyday. It's making me rethink my opinion on carry in dorms. If my son, who loves shooting and wants a CHL someday, says it would be unsafe, then I"m inclined to think that dorms may need to be set aside from campus carry.

So what is the alternative to storing the firearm in their dorm room? Keep it in their vehicle as it is now? Also, what campus in Texas has unarmed police officers? Our guards of course are unarmed but my fellow officers and I carry handguns and have patrol rifles.

[v7a]

PaJ, are you saying that there's a threshold at which the goal of reducing suicide in an at-risk demographic becomes more important than protecting the individual's right to armed self-defense? If so, that's not any different than what many anti-gun people believe. They just have a different threshold and think that keeping a handgun in your own home is an unacceptable suicide risk (the "guns should be kept in a locker at the range" crowd).

Many students commit suicide after bullying. Should we restrict the 1st Amendment rights of students to reduce those suicides?

[ScooterSissy]

Just to back track here. There is a differnce between having a State Law preventing CHL carry on campus and students storing guns in the dorm room. They are not really the same issue. Even if campus carry is passed, I do not think it is unreasonable for the university to impose restrictions on storing guns in dorm rooms based on their status as the landlord. They might even ban gun ownership in dorms based on that status. However, that only affects student living dorms and does not prevent licensed concealed carry in the dorm or the rest of campus.

I disagree.

I disagree as well, but not completely. I would have a problem with a university banning guns in the dorm room. I would not have a problem with part of the dorm room agreement being a requirement for a student-provided approved lock box big enough to hold all guns.

[mojo84]

I think allowing schools to require the guns be stored in a lock box provided by the student when it is stored in a dorm room is acceptable.

[Cedar Park Dad]

I had lunch with my son yesterday who is a 19 year old freshman at U of H and lives on campus. We've talked about various issues before around carrying, but we talked very specifically about this issue yesterday. His take was interesting I thought.

1. He is against having guns in the dorms because of potential access by someone not qualified to handle a firearm. He said the stress of college has been rough on him and he's handled it better than most (he is a certified EMT so has more training in stressful situations than most 19 year olds). His concern isn't necessarily mass shootings but also includes suicides. he also realizes that if someone wants to die badly enough they will find a way, but a gun may make action on a bad decision more likely.

2. He is upset that the security guards and even many of the campus police are unarmed. They are essentially useless for a bad situation. In the robbery that happened earlier this week (gun point outside the dorm), a security guard saw the entire thing. From a distance he didn't realize what he was seeing. But even if he did, would he have been able to do anything against an armed robber? He also said that the girls that were robbed made several bad decisions that made them targets. It wasn't entirely a BGWAG situation.

3. He also thinks that CHL's who come onto campus should be able to carry (students, teachers, employees, parents, guests, etc). They can carry everywhere else, and currently are, without the 'wild west' scenario. So why not let them carry on campus.

In his mind, keep them out of student housing and it's fine. He thinks all security and police need to be trained and carry.

My son has always been a "good kid". He's very level headed and dealt with some severe issues at home at a young age, which has made him who he is today. Even though he has a lot to learn, I can say I truly value his opinion on many issues. If he says, "in the dorms would be a bad idea", he knows far better than I. But he also says, "We need protection everywhere else. CHLs should be allowed to carry."

After hearing his view point, I don't believe it's due to "liberal" influences, but from what he lives everyday. It's making me rethink my opinion on carry in dorms. If my son, who loves shooting and wants a CHL someday, says it would be unsafe, then I"m inclined to think that dorms may need to be set aside from campus carry.

Are anyone in his dorms aged 21 or over?

[Cedar Park Dad]

I think allowing schools to require the guns be stored in a lock box provided by the student when it is stored in a dorm room is acceptable.

Considering its a non-issue (again how many 21 years olds are in the dorms?) I'm ok with that in dorms.
In student housing - thats different, as that could include university apartment type housing for older grad students and their families.

[PaJ]

I had lunch with my son yesterday who is a 19 year old freshman at U of H and lives on campus. We've talked about various issues before around carrying, but we talked very specifically about this issue yesterday. His take was interesting I thought.

1. He is against having guns in the dorms because of potential access by someone not qualified to handle a firearm. He said the stress of college has been rough on him and he's handled it better than most (he is a certified EMT so has more training in stressful situations than most 19 year olds). His concern isn't necessarily mass shootings but also includes suicides. he also realizes that if someone wants to die badly enough they will find a way, but a gun may make action on a bad decision more likely.

2. He is upset that the security guards and even many of the campus police are unarmed. They are essentially useless for a bad situation. In the robbery that happened earlier this week (gun point outside the dorm), a security guard saw the entire thing. From a distance he didn't realize what he was seeing. But even if he did, would he have been able to do anything against an armed robber? He also said that the girls that were robbed made several bad decisions that made them targets. It wasn't entirely a BGWAG situation.

3. He also thinks that CHL's who come onto campus should be able to carry (students, teachers, employees, parents, guests, etc). They can carry everywhere else, and currently are, without the 'wild west' scenario. So why not let them carry on campus.

In his mind, keep them out of student housing and it's fine. He thinks all security and police need to be trained and carry.

My son has always been a "good kid". He's very level headed and dealt with some severe issues at home at a young age, which has made him who he is today. Even though he has a lot to learn, I can say I truly value his opinion on many issues. If he says, "in the dorms would be a bad idea", he knows far better than I. But he also says, "We need protection everywhere else. CHLs should be allowed to carry."

After hearing his view point, I don't believe it's due to "liberal" influences, but from what he lives everyday. It's making me rethink my opinion on carry in dorms. If my son, who loves shooting and wants a CHL someday, says it would be unsafe, then I"m inclined to think that dorms may need to be set aside from campus carry.

So what is the alternative to storing the firearm in their dorm room? Keep it in their vehicle as it is now? Also, what campus in Texas has unarmed police officers? Our guards of course are unarmed but my fellow officers and I carry handguns and have patrol rifles.

He says the guards are unarmed, and "half" of the police officers are. I don't know where he got his information, but it struck me as odd that only half would be armed. Just relaying the info.

[mojo84]

I think allowing schools to require the guns be stored in a lock box provided by the student when it is stored in a dorm room is acceptable.

Considering its a non-issue (again how many 21 years olds are in the dorms?) I'm ok with that in dorms.
In student housing - thats different, as that could include university apartment type housing for older grad students and their families.

I disagree that it's a non issue.

[Jason K]

I think allowing schools to require the guns be stored in a lock box provided by the student when it is stored in a dorm room is acceptable.

Considering its a non-issue (again how many 21 years olds are in the dorms?) I'm ok with that in dorms.
In student housing - thats different, as that could include university apartment type housing for older grad students and their families.

Good distinction. Dorm rooms are difficult to secure, so I could understand a college not allowing guns to be stored in the room. (Maybe students could store 1-2 handguns in a locked container in the dorm office?) University apartments and houses should only require secure storage, but not prohibit gun ownership.

Again, we're talking about CHL holders, who are 21 y.o. and older....the state-verified good guys. Why are universities afraid to let the good guys have guns? They don't seem to mind the criminals having them....

[Cedar Park Dad]

I think allowing schools to require the guns be stored in a lock box provided by the student when it is stored in a dorm room is acceptable.

Considering its a non-issue (again how many 21 years olds are in the dorms?) I'm ok with that in dorms.
In student housing - thats different, as that could include university apartment type housing for older grad students and their families.

I disagree that it's a non issue.

I hear you and agree on the the legality aspect. I'm just noting pragmatically its a nonissue.

I think the concept of a lockbox is a good idea, regardless. I know my Boy's dorm had a safe kind of deal he could put valuables in. I would think a simple lockbox should be the norm for every dorm room. We have fast open safes at the house to protect against children. Teens are even worse...

[Cedar Park Dad]

I think allowing schools to require the guns be stored in a lock box provided by the student when it is stored in a dorm room is acceptable.

Considering its a non-issue (again how many 21 years olds are in the dorms?) I'm ok with that in dorms.
In student housing - thats different, as that could include university apartment type housing for older grad students and their families.

Good distinction. Dorm rooms are difficult to secure, so I could understand a college not allowing guns to be stored in the room. (Maybe students could store 1-2 handguns in a locked container in the dorm office?) University apartments and houses should only require secure storage, but not prohibit gun ownership.

Again, we're talking about CHL holders, who are 21 y.o. and older....the state-verified good guys. Why are universities afraid to let the good guys have guns? They don't seem to mind the criminals having them....

To be clear, I'm not for banning them from dorms, but for requiring lockboxes in dorms. In more apartment style residences (I've heard of these for grads) there should be no requirement whatsoever.

[TXBO]

Seems like someone should be able to run the numbers on the ages of students living on campus.

I'm sure it's somewhere. A quick search found an article by Forbes that said that 14% of all college students live on campus. Deductive reasoning would indicate that the majority of that 14% are under 21 years old if for no other reason than the dropout rate of college results in more 1st year students than 2nd year, 2nd year than 3rd year, etc. Assuming the same percentage of 1st year students live on campus as 4th year students, and given the dropout rate is around 50%, there would be a significant number more students under the age of 21 than 21 or above that live on campus. I couldn't find the dropout rate per year so it'd be a pure guess to figure out the exact percentage under 21.

But for grins, let's go high and say 25% of the students in the dorm are 21 or over. So for every 100,000 students, 14,000 live in the dorm and 3,500 are eligible for a CHL. In Texas, one statistic says 2.25% conceal carry, so 79 out of 100,000 college students will have a CHL and live in the dorm. Since there are about $1.6 million college students in Texas, this would mean that there is a total of 1,300 students who live on campus and have a CHL. Even at $100 per lock box, that is a cost of $130,000 for all of the colleges and universities in Texas to have a way for on campus residents to secure their weapons. As others have pointed out, there's no expense for anyone from off campus since they would have the burden of carrying concealed.

This article is just more irrationality to "see what sticks" as someone said earlier.

I would consider it reasonable for the student to pay the $100 for the lock box. After all, I pay for a safe for my home.

It would be reasonable but we all know that a $100 lock box is not much of a deterrent against theft.

Technically, a $5000 safe is not a full proof prevention of theft either, but it helps. I think we are really talking about preventing casual access from idiot drunkards who may also live in the dorm.

You're absolutely right. A $100 lock box is a feel good item..... But it won't stop an "idiot drunkard" college student with a crowbar for more than about 15 seconds. A $1000 TL 15 would keep out all but the professional thief.

[PaJ]

PaJ, are you saying that there's a threshold at which the goal of reducing suicide in an at-risk demographic becomes more important than protecting the individual's right to armed self-defense? If so, that's not any different than what many anti-gun people believe. They just have a different threshold and think that keeping a handgun in your own home is an unacceptable suicide risk (the "guns should be kept in a locker at the range" crowd).

Many students commit suicide after bullying. Should we restrict the 1st Amendment rights of students to reduce those suicides?

Truly, I'm struggling between what I believe our rights are and what my son tells me is a bad idea from what he sees. I mentioned to him that I always had guns in my dorm room for hunting or whatever. His response was, "from what I see, I wouldn't be comfortable with some people having guns in the dorm."

Prior to yesterday's discussion, I was 100% for any CHL holder to carry on campus (dorm or otherwise). When he made his comments, I even thought that this sounded like "anti" influence, which is why I asked other "well what about in this case?" kind of questions. But when he boiled it down to carrying on campus is fine and should happen. But from what he sees while living in the dorms, he thinks that would be a bad idea, it gives me reason to more deeply explore my position. How do you monitor it? Do they leave it in cars? I'm not sure. Concealed anytime anywhere is much easier for sure. And maybe his thoughts are influenced by others. Once implemented, maybe his fears/concerns are unfounded (like many other 'anti' fears of the wild west, etc).

Or maybe I need to get him out of the dorms because it's full of unstable people.

[mojo84]

PaJ, are you saying that there's a threshold at which the goal of reducing suicide in an at-risk demographic becomes more important than protecting the individual's right to armed self-defense? If so, that's not any different than what many anti-gun people believe. They just have a different threshold and think that keeping a handgun in your own home is an unacceptable suicide risk (the "guns should be kept in a locker at the range" crowd).

Many students commit suicide after bullying. Should we restrict the 1st Amendment rights of students to reduce those suicides?

Truly, I'm struggling between what I believe our rights are and what my son tells me is a bad idea from what he sees. I mentioned to him that I always had guns in my dorm room for hunting or whatever. His response was, "from what I see, I wouldn't be comfortable with some people having guns in the dorm."

Prior to yesterday's discussion, I was 100% for any CHL holder to carry on campus (dorm or otherwise). When he made his comments, I even thought that this sounded like "anti" influence, which is why I asked other "well what about in this case?" kind of questions. But when he boiled it down to carrying on campus is fine and should happen. But from what he sees while living in the dorms, he thinks that would be a bad idea, it gives me reason to more deeply explore my position. How do you monitor it? Do they leave it in cars? I'm not sure. Concealed anytime anywhere is much easier for sure. And maybe his thoughts are influenced by others. Once implemented, maybe his fears/concerns are unfounded (like many other 'anti' fears of the wild west, etc).

Or maybe I need to get him out of the dorms because it's full of unstable people.

My son's opinion is the opposite of your son's. He has no problem with the students that have a chl having guns in their dorms.

[Middle Age Russ]

PaJ,

Taking your son's comment at face value as you presented it, I can see where he is coming from. I, too, am not terribly comfortable with the idea that some of the folks around me may have guns (some of them lack maturity, respnsibility, sanity, good judgement, or other - and perhaps multiple -- attributes that cause my discomfort). That said, the folks who have CHLs generally don't cause me to feel this way. Persons with CHL have passed a background check, they have been informed of the laws surrounding carrying a concealed firearm in the state of Texas and they have demonstrated a modicum of proficiency in running their gun to their instructor. Further, statistics cited by Charles and others here show that license holders are far less apt to commit crimes of any kind than the general populace. The question is not whether one is comfortable with all other students being armed, but whether one is comfortable with a given subset of them being armed.

Russ