SB 718 Introduced. Relating to firearm purchase permit.

[steveincowtown]

Right. I don't think we need registration, which can develop into an expensive and mismanaged administrative nightmare. But I do think the purchase of any firearm or lethal weapon needs at least a criminal background check. I would also like to see more (enhanced) firearm management education for firearm owners to attempt to lower the chance of accidental discharges, but I guess that's for another thread?

Why stop at universal background checks for guns? What about chainsaws?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we already have background checks for purchasing and/or carrying handguns. I'd have to check the chainsaw forums before commenting.

Not true. I have purchased many guns without any sort of background check.

Also requiring "universal" background checks does nothing to actually prevent criminals from getting guns, and only serves as an inconvience to those that are abiding by the law.

[mr1337]

Right. I don't think we need registration, which can develop into an expensive and mismanaged administrative nightmare. But I do think the purchase of any firearm or lethal weapon needs at least a criminal background check. I would also like to see more (enhanced) firearm management education for firearm owners to attempt to lower the chance of accidental discharges, but I guess that's for another thread?

Why stop at universal background checks for guns? What about chainsaws?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we already have background checks for purchasing and/or carrying handguns. I'd have to check the chainsaw forums before commenting.

Not true. I have purchased many guns without any sort of background check.

Also requiring "universal" background checks does nothing to actually prevent criminals from getting guns, and only serves as an inconvience to those that are abiding by the law.

I can just see it now...

Gangster #1: You want to buy this new Glock .40 I stole?

Gangster #2: Sure, here's the cash.

Gangster #1: Aight, we gotta run this background check first or else we'd be breaking the law.

That's not going to happen.

[K5GU]

Right. I don't think we need registration, which can develop into an expensive and mismanaged administrative nightmare. But I do think the purchase of any firearm or lethal weapon needs at least a criminal background check. I would also like to see more (enhanced) firearm management education for firearm owners to attempt to lower the chance of accidental discharges, but I guess that's for another thread?

Why stop at universal background checks for guns? What about chainsaws?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we already have background checks for purchasing and/or carrying handguns. I'd have to check the chainsaw forums before commenting.

Not true. I have purchased many guns without any sort of background check.

Also requiring "universal" background checks does nothing to actually prevent criminals from getting guns, and only serves as an inconvience to those that are abiding by the law.

Sorry if you misunderstood me..I never mentioned "universal" background check. I think if "universal" is applied that means ALL sales including private sales between individuals would require a check, which I think would be overdoing it for sure.

BTW, I personally have never felt inconvienced when buying a handgun ( I buy from dealers who are FFL's - my preference). I pick out the gun, give them my CHL, and sign my name on a form, pay them, take the gun home. By having the CHL, they don't have to do a background check, and I don't have to fill out the multipage forms, etc. Easy!

[anygunanywhere]

Right. I don't think we need registration, which can develop into an expensive and mismanaged administrative nightmare. But I do think the purchase of any firearm or lethal weapon needs at least a criminal background check. I would also like to see more (enhanced) firearm management education for firearm owners to attempt to lower the chance of accidental discharges, but I guess that's for another thread?

Why stop at universal background checks for guns? What about chainsaws?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we already have background checks for purchasing and/or carrying handguns. I'd have to check the chainsaw forums before commenting.

Not true. I have purchased many guns without any sort of background check.

Also requiring "universal" background checks does nothing to actually prevent criminals from getting guns, and only serves as an inconvience to those that are abiding by the law.

Sorry if you misunderstood me..I never mentioned "universal" background check. I think if "universal" is applied that means ALL sales including private sales between individuals would require a check, which I think would be overdoing it for sure.

BTW, I personally have never felt inconvienced when buying a handgun ( I buy from dealers who are FFL's - my preference). I pick out the gun, give them my CHL, and sign my name on a form, pay them, take the gun home. By having the CHL, they don't have to do a background check, and I don't have to fill out the multipage forms, etc. Easy!

You still have to fill out the 4473 even with a CHL if you buy from an FFL.

[K5GU]

Right. I don't think we need registration, which can develop into an expensive and mismanaged administrative nightmare. But I do think the purchase of any firearm or lethal weapon needs at least a criminal background check. I would also like to see more (enhanced) firearm management education for firearm owners to attempt to lower the chance of accidental discharges, but I guess that's for another thread?

Why stop at universal background checks for guns? What about chainsaws?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we already have background checks for purchasing and/or carrying handguns. I'd have to check the chainsaw forums before commenting.

Not true. I have purchased many guns without any sort of background check.

Also requiring "universal" background checks does nothing to actually prevent criminals from getting guns, and only serves as an inconvience to those that are abiding by the law.

Sorry if you misunderstood me..I never mentioned "universal" background check. I think if "universal" is applied that means ALL sales including private sales between individuals would require a check, which I think would be overdoing it for sure.

BTW, I personally have never felt inconvienced when buying a handgun ( I buy from dealers who are FFL's - my preference). I pick out the gun, give them my CHL, and sign my name on a form, pay them, take the gun home. By having the CHL, they don't have to do a background check, and I don't have to fill out the multipage forms, etc. Easy!

You still have to fill out the 4473 even with a CHL if you buy from an FFL.

Yep. Section A then sign. Takes about 60 seconds.

[Scott Farkus]

There is no other "multi page" form, whether you have a CHL or not. What are you talking about?

[K5GU]

There is no other "multi page" form, whether you have a CHL or not. What are you talking about?

Last 4473 (Rev date of April 2012). I filled out had 6 pages, I fill out Section A, page 1, sign at top of page 2. Pages 3 and 4 the seller fills out, some of which is populated by info. from my CHL, and some of which not applicable unless a NICS background check is needed, otherwise, not applicable. Remainder pages are instructions, notifications and definitions. What form are you talking about?

[Scott Farkus]

There is no other "multi page" form, whether you have a CHL or not. What are you talking about?

Last 4473 (Rev date of April 2012). I filled out had 6 pages, I fill out Section A, page 1, sign at top of page 2. Pages 3 and 4 the seller fills out, some of which is populated by info. from my CHL, and some of which not applicable unless a NICS background check is needed, otherwise, not applicable. Remainder pages are instructions, notifications and definitions. What form are you talking about?

The buyer fills out page 1 of Form 4473 and signs at the top of page 2. If you want to call that "multi-page", fine I guess, but everybody buying from an FFL has to do it regardless of whether they have a CHL or not.

There is another page or so that the seller fills out. That's not my problem.

The rest is ATF legalese.

Where are you as a buyer filling out 6 pages of forms?

[K5GU]

There is no other "multi page" form, whether you have a CHL or not. What are you talking about?

Last 4473 (Rev date of April 2012). I filled out had 6 pages, I fill out Section A, page 1, sign at top of page 2. Pages 3 and 4 the seller fills out, some of which is populated by info. from my CHL, and some of which not applicable unless a NICS background check is needed, otherwise, not applicable. Remainder pages are instructions, notifications and definitions. What form are you talking about?

The buyer fills out page 1 of Form 4473 and signs at the top of page 2. If you want to call that "multi-page", fine I guess, but everybody buying from an FFL has to do it regardless of whether they have a CHL or not.

There is another page or so that the seller fills out. That's not my problem.

The rest is ATF legalese.

Where are you as a buyer filling out 6 pages of forms?

Read it again. I only filled out Section A Page 1 and signed top of Page 2. ATF Form 4473 is a multi-page form.

[Scott Farkus]

You said:

By having the CHL, they don't have to do a background check, and I don't have to fill out the multipage forms, etc. Easy!

You fill out the exact same form whether you have a CHL or not.

I don't understand what point you think you're making.

[mr1337]

You said:

By having the CHL, they don't have to do a background check, and I don't have to fill out the multipage forms, etc. Easy!

You fill out the exact same form whether you have a CHL or not.

I don't understand what point you think you're making.

I think his point is when you have a CHL, you fill out the 4473, but they don't need to run it through the system because your CHL provides proof that you're eligible to purchase a firearm.

[K5GU]

You said:

By having the CHL, they don't have to do a background check, and I don't have to fill out the multipage forms, etc. Easy!

You fill out the exact same form whether you have a CHL or not.

I don't understand what point you think you're making.

I think his point is when you have a CHL, you fill out the 4473, but they don't need to run it through the system because your CHL provides proof that you're eligible to purchase a firearm.

Thanks. I won't be replying any further to posts in this thread unless they relate to SB 718. I realize getting into repeated posts trying to help someone understand what I wrote about an ATF form is non-productive and is not to the benefit of the forum community. Thanks again mr1337.

[Wolverine]

I think his point is when you have a CHL, you fill out the 4473, but they don't need to run it through the system because your CHL provides proof that you're eligible to purchase a firearm.

I think most of us agree they aren't required to do a NICS check if you have a CHL. Some dealers do one anyhow, but that's another story.

The comment that seems to confuse a lot of us was "I don't have to fill out the multipage forms" when the paperwork we have to fill out is the same, whether or not we have a CHL or other qualifying permit. I presume the intent of the bill is to offer a non-carry purchase permit like some states in that list, but not make the purchase permit mandatory, especially not for private sales.

[RogueUSMC]

Constitutionally, the burden of proof is on the government. We are innocent until the government proves us guilty.

But we have allowed legislation that shifts that burden of proof on us. In this case, it is a gun purchase. We have to prove our innocence...repeatedly...in order to purchase a tool that facilitates that one particular choice of self defense.

The sad part is, society as a whole has been conditioned to a point where society thinks that's the way it's supposed to be...