What are your "complaint" options?

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joelamosobadiah
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Re: What are you "complaint" options?

#16

Post by joelamosobadiah » Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:09 am

Ruark wrote:I appreciate the input here, and it's a viable topic of conversation, but I'm hoping we can get back to the original question: in the case of investigatory stops without PC, what complaint options are available besides a $350-an-hour lawyer?
The same options that are available for all other types of complaints. You can go to the commanding officer, file a complaint through whatever system your agency may have in place, you may contact elected representatives (mayor, senator, congressman, etc.) or you may take it to the court system. You may even take it to the court of public opinion via social media or news outlets.

What type of answer are you looking for? Creation of a state-wide oversight agency?

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Re: What are you "complaint" options?

#17

Post by joe817 » Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:39 am

joelamosobadiah wrote:
Ruark wrote:I appreciate the input here, and it's a viable topic of conversation, but I'm hoping we can get back to the original question: in the case of investigatory stops without PC, what complaint options are available besides a $350-an-hour lawyer?
The same options that are available for all other types of complaints. You can go to the commanding officer, file a complaint through whatever system your agency may have in place, you may contact elected representatives (mayor, senator, congressman, etc.) or you may take it to the court system. You may even take it to the court of public opinion via social media or news outlets.

What type of answer are you looking for? Creation of a state-wide oversight agency?
The simplest answer I can think of is: Simply don't open carry until after the dust settles. Let others be the frontrunners on this new way of carrying a pistol. Let them be the test case and just sit back and watch and see what happens. My prediction is......nothing. ;-)

There will be 7 full months for all law enforcement agencies to fully educate their officers and have them vetted by the time we can OC.

I see all these 'sky is falling' conversations about what "some" LEO's might do and how our rights are being violated, is much to do about nothing.
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joelamosobadiah
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Re: What are you "complaint" options?

#18

Post by joelamosobadiah » Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:43 am

joe817 wrote:
joelamosobadiah wrote:
Ruark wrote:I appreciate the input here, and it's a viable topic of conversation, but I'm hoping we can get back to the original question: in the case of investigatory stops without PC, what complaint options are available besides a $350-an-hour lawyer?
The same options that are available for all other types of complaints. You can go to the commanding officer, file a complaint through whatever system your agency may have in place, you may contact elected representatives (mayor, senator, congressman, etc.) or you may take it to the court system. You may even take it to the court of public opinion via social media or news outlets.

What type of answer are you looking for? Creation of a state-wide oversight agency?
The simplest answer I can think of is: Simply don't open carry until after the dust settles. Let others be the frontrunners on this new way of carrying a pistol. Let them be the test case and just sit back and watch and see what happens. My prediction is......nothing. ;-)

There will be 7 full months for all law enforcement agencies to fully educate their officers and have them vetted by the time we can OC.

I see all these 'sky is falling' conversations about what "some" LEO's might do and how our rights are being violated, is much to do about nothing.
Agreed. My brother is a LEO where I live, so I will have a little insight into what instructions or training has been given. Even at that, IF I decide to open carry, it will be during my normal course of business. I won't go stand in the mall with a video camera, walk down streets without a specific destination, etc. and I believe if I make that decision, I will experience very little, if any, attention from law enforcement or others.

Now that being said, if I found myself in Austin or Houston the first day of open carry, I think I would rather untuck my shirt...

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Re: What are you "complaint" options?

#19

Post by LabRat » Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:51 am

Ruark wrote:I think it goes without saying that some LEOs are going to perform excessively invasive investigatory stops. Say, instead of just glancing at your CHL and saying "have a nice day," the LEO takes your gun ("for your own safety, sir"), goes an sits in his car for 10 minutes checking for warrants, several other LEOs arrive for backup, your gun is unloaded and the shells scattered on the ground, a crowd gathers, etc. All this has happened to people lawfully carrying in other states.

We've often read on here that in such a case, a complaint should be filed, maybe a lawsuit. But that's easier said than done; there are many of us who can't afford to pay some lawyer $350 an hour to sue a city government. What other avenues of action could be taken, given that nobody wants to take the case pro bono? It might be useful to know just what the options are.
I've read the other comments to your post in this thread. Hopefully, the LE agencies will practice their due diligence during training and not focus on the dropped amendment, but consider that the 4th and 5th amendments still apply to their interactions with citizens.

The 4th amendment was not discarded when the Dutton amendment was removed; hopefully, Police Department legal counsel will remind officers of that very important fact.

In the beginning there likely will be growing pains from both sides. I think keeping calm and logical will defuse most situations.

Complaining to the department through their established process would be the first logical step if a stop is considered to be harassment. Beyond that you have legal options.

One possible option is to ask the ACLU to review your information to see if they will work with you. I'm not a big fan of the ACLU, however if they are an organization for "American Civil Liberties", then we could see if they are as high-minded on the real front as they are on their name.

The stops are not a 2nd amendment issue, the stops seem to me to be a 4th amendment issue. Well within the ACLU's wheelhouse based on their other cases I've heard about. Let's see how diligent they are about ALL civil rights.

I'm not a lawyer and this ain't legal advice...just me mumbling about what I think.

LabRat

Edit: Mr. Cotton has some very spot-on comments in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=94&t=77785" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: What are you "complaint" options?

#20

Post by anygunanywhere » Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:29 pm

joe817 wrote:
joelamosobadiah wrote:
Ruark wrote:I appreciate the input here, and it's a viable topic of conversation, but I'm hoping we can get back to the original question: in the case of investigatory stops without PC, what complaint options are available besides a $350-an-hour lawyer?
The same options that are available for all other types of complaints. You can go to the commanding officer, file a complaint through whatever system your agency may have in place, you may contact elected representatives (mayor, senator, congressman, etc.) or you may take it to the court system. You may even take it to the court of public opinion via social media or news outlets.

What type of answer are you looking for? Creation of a state-wide oversight agency?
The simplest answer I can think of is: Simply don't open carry until after the dust settles. Let others be the frontrunners on this new way of carrying a pistol. Let them be the test case and just sit back and watch and see what happens. My prediction is......nothing. ;-)

There will be 7 full months for all law enforcement agencies to fully educate their officers and have them vetted by the time we can OC.

I see all these 'sky is falling' conversations about what "some" LEO's might do and how our rights are being violated, is much to do about nothing.
This forum essentially speaks for all CHLs. We are the only ones allowed to OC once the law takes effect except for LEO. If we (collective) wait for the dust to settle it will never settle. This isn't necessarily a beat the rap not the ride scenario although it could be. We have constitutional law of our side, we know it, and they do too.
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Re: What are you "complaint" options?

#21

Post by tlt » Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:51 pm

I think we should give LEO and departments the time to wrap their arms around this first. That time, amounted to delayed effective date of the law assuming it gets signed. I know many were against it, and others are indifferent or for it.

I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, as we would like them to do for us until there is a reason to believe otherwise. Most of our LEO are dedicated professionals, who are already targeted enough these days. Give them a chance, then react.

I agree, document issues as they occur and then a solution can be developed if there are problems.


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Re: What are you "complaint" options?

#22

Post by JSThane » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:09 pm

Another option would be to look up who your elected officials in charge of the department are, i.e., country sheriff, city councilmen, etc., and send a copy of whatever complaint to them. Bring pressure on both sides, both a complaint up the chain, and one down the chain. Individual complaints might not always get the desired result, but shaking the trunk usually results in all the leaves feeling it.


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Re: What are you "complaint" options?

#23

Post by Ruark » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:29 pm

LabRat wrote:
The 4th amendment was not discarded when the Dutton amendment was removed; hopefully, Police Department legal counsel will remind officers of that very important fact.
That "settled" 4th amendment law has been in effect for quite some time. Do a YouTube search for "open carry harrassment" (without quotes) and watch some of the videos. Granted, most of these people were carrying ARs, but they were doing so peacefully, and completely legally - just as legally as we will open carry handguns after 1/1/16. The 4th amendment sure didn't stop them. If LEOs are so aware of being blocked by the 4th amendment regardless, then why were so many of them (including chiefs) hysterically against the amendment to HB910?

FWIW, it was in effect during the Grisham incident, too.

Also, I think it general it's a little futile to start arguing with an LEO about constitutional law. That's "not where their heads are at," so to speak.

I realize and agree that the vast majority of LEOs are decent people. But not all of them. There's also the matter of departmental policy regarding OC. I would love to be a fly on the wall when Acevedo talks to his officers about it.
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Re: What are you "complaint" options?

#24

Post by v7a » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:37 pm

Ruark wrote:Also, I think it general it's a little futile to start arguing with an LEO about constitutional law.
Yep.


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Re: What are you "complaint" options?

#25

Post by juno106 » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:50 pm

Ruark wrote:
That "settled" 4th amendment law has been in effect for quite some time. Do a YouTube search for "open carry harrassment" (without quotes) and watch some of the videos. Granted, most of these people were carrying ARs, but they were doing so peacefully, and completely legally - just as legally as we will open carry handguns after 1/1/16. The 4th amendment sure didn't stop them. If LEOs are so aware of being blocked by the 4th amendment regardless, then why were so many of them (including chiefs) hysterically against the amendment to HB910?

FWIW, it was in effect during the Grisham incident, too.

Also, I think it general it's a little futile to start arguing with an LEO about constitutional law. That's "not where their heads are at," so to speak.

I realize and agree that the vast majority of LEOs are decent people. But not all of them. There's also the matter of departmental policy regarding OC. I would love to be a fly on the wall when Acevedo talks to his officers about it.

:iagree:

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Re: What are you "complaint" options?

#26

Post by K5GU » Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:26 pm

Reading about law enforcement officers, police chiefs, etc., reminded me of a joint resolution (SJR55) that Senator Huffines introduced in March to add an amendment to the Texas Constitution related to the retention of appointed police chiefs to be decided by elections, rather than an appointment in a municipality greater than 5000. It would have required a public vote in November. It didn't make it very far for some reason. I was thinking the bill would get more attention than it did, in light of some of the controversial issues lately regarding police shootings, illegal arrests and handguns. It is SJR 55 http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/84 ... 00055I.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: What are you "complaint" options?

#27

Post by Vol Texan » Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:29 pm

I don't think the OP was asking about how to argue with a LEO. I don't think he was itching for a fight. I don't think he was looking for any trouble at all.

A possible rephrasing of the OP's question might stop all the advice and challenges he has been getting about the wisdom of doing any of the above:

rephrase wrote:IF he is open carrying legally, and
IF a LEO performs an overzealous stop (irrespective of how calm, courteous, and professional the OP acts), and
IF the interaction seems to be a bit over the top, and
IF the OP is interested in escalating this to a higher official AFTER the stop is complete, and AFTER the LEO has left:

What options are available to him, given that he is not made of $$$, and may not be able to hire an attorney to fight a long and costly legal battle for him?
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Re: What are you "complaint" options?

#28

Post by SA-TX » Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:31 pm

anygunanywhere wrote:We have constitutional law of our side, we know it, and they do too.
Maybe. We hope so. Charles said we'll have go wait and see if the 5th Circuit adopts the position that being openly armed or responding to a MWAG call isn't enough. The 6th Circuit recently said that http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pd ... 92p-06.pdf and even referenced a 5th Circuit case in support (http://openjurist.org/5/f3d/894). Time will tell. I agree but theirs are the opinions that count. I'm confident that Charles and the TSRA legal team will keep us appraised of the developments both before and after the law is effective.

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Re: What are you "complaint" options?

#29

Post by anygunanywhere » Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:38 pm

SA-TX wrote:
anygunanywhere wrote:We have constitutional law of our side, we know it, and they do too.
Maybe. We hope so. Charles said we'll have go wait and see if the 5th Circuit adopts the position that being openly armed or responding to a MWAG call isn't enough. The 6th Circuit recently said that http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pd ... 92p-06.pdf and even referenced a 5th Circuit case in support (http://openjurist.org/5/f3d/894). Time will tell. I agree but theirs are the opinions that count. I'm confident that Charles and the TSRA legal team will keep us appraised of the developments both before and after the law is effective.

SA-TX
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Re: What are you "complaint" options?

#30

Post by sbrawley » Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:39 pm

timtheteacher wrote:
Ruark wrote:I think it goes without saying that some LEOs are going to perform excessively invasive investigatory stops. Say, instead of just glancing at your CHL and saying "have a nice day," the LEO takes your gun ("for your own safety, sir"), goes an sits in his car for 10 minutes checking for warrants, several other LEOs arrive for backup, your gun is unloaded and the shells scattered on the ground, a crowd gathers, etc. All this has happened to people lawfully carrying in other states.

Why are you assuming the "worst case scenario?" I think that something as you have described will in all honesty be few and far between. Departments will brief their officers as this is a very big change. If you present a "combative" attitude it could be reflected in how the officer approaches you. Just my 2 cents...
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