This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

There is seemingly no end to the extent to which anti-gun people and groups will lie about guns and gun owners. Post links to articles by these masters of prevarication here.

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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

#16

Post by MaduroBU » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:40 pm

I would argue that talking with people is just fine. If you suspect that they will twist what you've said to fit a narrative that is against the spirit of your thoughts and words, it is wise to keep your own recording of the conversation. Being caught in a lie is one of the few things that embarrasses folks in the media, and the possibility that you could prove (not deny without proof, but prove with an audio recording) that they had twisted your words is likely to make them more honest.

Under the Gun's editors decided to insert a pregnant pause into an NRA official's interview (i.e., they added silence to appear that he was taken aback by a question), and were hammered by EVERYONE for it.

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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

#17

Post by comp73 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:08 pm

Does everyone realizes that Mike Weisser is HuffPo's resident "gun expert"? He has also been called Mike the anti gun guy. Here is a list of articles he has published on Huffpo and you can make up your own mind.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/author/mike-weisser
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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

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Post by SQLGeek » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:06 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:I would add this....... gunstore owner or not, if I were approached by a member of the Democrat Steno Pool (AKA “the media”) and asked if he/she could ask me some questions, my first response would be “what about?” If the subject was guns, my second response would be “you’re the enemy. I don’t talk to the enemy about guns. You’ll take my words and twist and edit them to mean whatever you want them to mean in the context of your narrative, and whatever comes out the other end of your sausage maker won’t be anything resembling either the truth, OR what I said. So get lost.”
He brags on his site about being in HuffPo and refers to the NRA as his enemy (despite the fact he's a member). So he is all too willing to not only speculate about things he's ignorant of but provide plenty of fuel to the media.
Psalm 91:2

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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

#19

Post by SQLGeek » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:10 pm

comp73 wrote:Does everyone realizes that Mike Weisser is HuffPo's resident "gun expert"? He has also been called Mike the anti gun guy. Here is a list of articles he has published on Huffpo and you can make up your own mind.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/author/mike-weisser
I had not heard of him before today. He makes your everyday Fudd look like an avid gun nut in comparison. He is the living embodiment of the "I have my grandpappy's deer rifle but..." brand of anti-gun crowd.
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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

#20

Post by Jago668 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:37 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Jago668 wrote:Considering that if you go to any training at all you get more training than 50% of the sworn law enforcement officers in the country receive.
I’m pretty sure it was Col Jeff Cooper who said “owning a guitar does not make you a musician”. Of course, he’s right, and (although I actually AM a musician) I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t have nearly enough training to make me into some kind of tactical killing machine. But I also got into this game later in life, I have physical infirmities, and there’s a limit to what I actually can do. The problem with the argument being made by both NPR and this gunstore quisling is two-fold: (1) it assumes that the exercise of a RIGHT should be limited to those with “proper training” (and who gets to decide what ‘proper’ means, anyway?); and (2) it completely ignores the concept of effectiveness. You can be all kinds of trained, but if you can’t apply your training effectively, your “value” as a gunfighter is devalued to the level of someone else who has less training, but uses it more effectively.

My example of “trained but ineffective”, since the OP’s linked article is obviously a response to the recent church shooting...... The gentleman who responded with his AR15 - who IS a hero, so I’m not trying to knock him down here - is described as a former NRA instructor, although instructor of what hasn’t been specified in the Democrat Steno Pool (AKA “the media”), because they are largely ignorant to the fact that the NRA trains many different kinds of instructors. This is important, because he may be a perfectly competent Basic Pistol instructor, but that doesn’t mean that he’s a qualified rifle instructor. And he made a critical error prior to grabbing his AR15 and responding to the ongoing shooting, and that was to NOT have any already charged magazines on hand for his AR. It is absolutely possible to keep charged mags on hand, without violating any gun safety rules. Example, I have an AR in the safe. On top of the safe is an ammo box (too difficult for a child to open, and too high for a child to reach), and that ammo box has 15 fully charged 30 round mags. But both the AR and charged magazines are quickly available to me without violating any safety rules. Now, the man who grabbed his AR and ran toward the sound of the guns had no charged magazines on hand. Instead, he grabbed “a handful” (as he described it) of loose rounds, and with the rifle tucked under his arm, he began charging the magazine on the run as he ran toward the church. He also admitted that when he got there, he had no idea how many rounds he had in the magazine. I wonder how many he dropped on the ground as he ran. But almost nobody can hold 30 5.56 rounds in one hand, let alone stuff them into a magazine while running, with a 7 lb rifle tucked under an arm. It is a safe bet that he probably had fewer than 10 rounds in the mag by the time he got there - the church being just down the block. And he was facing a determined homicidal maniac who had more than one gun, and who had charged mags for those guns.

THAT is ineffective application of training. Again, please understand that I consider him a hero, and I only pray - heavean forbid I should ever find myself in the same predicament - that I would face it with the same courage that he did. BUT..... NOT having at least one fully charged magazine available to him when he grabbed his AR was a huge mistake, and he is darn lucky that he was able to connect with the rounds he DID have on arrival. In fact, considering the circumstances, my personal opinion is that God made sure he succeeded. An AR15 without an available loaded magazine is as useless as any unloaded pistol without a charged magazine on hand. And that was a significant mistake made by a trained shooter, which reduced the effectiveness of his training.

I think that equally important to the actual training, is gaming out scenarios in your head, taking into account a realistic appraisal of your own capabilities and/or limitations. I have a common practice of quizzing myself periodically, and I do it under many kinds of conditions - while driving, while in church, while at the supermarket, while relaxing at home, whatever; and I ask myself “what would I do IF....”

My wife and I recently moved into (for us) an enormous house with our son and his family, and we all live together now - 3 generations - so our home-defense dynamics have changed. My son is also tactically minded and a trained shooter too, so that adds some complexities, but also some capabilities. We both went from living in 1-story homes to living together in a 2-story home. Children both sleep upstairs in separate rooms, and adults all sleep downstairs in separate master suites. Our new home’s security system including several external cameras which have a warning capability, so we get audible and visual warnings on our phones almost as soon as someone steps onto the property. My son is big and strong like ox, and I’m finding myself increasingly less able and more arthritic as I age, so there’s things he can do that I cannot, etc., etc., etc. I say all this because it affects our home-defense decision making. And because it’s all new, it provides a great opportunity for all of my family to reassess how to cover the bases.

None of this is an excuse to not get some training, but simply some commentary to point out that training won’t count if it isn’t applied effectively, and that it is unreasonable to expect everyone to get trained into some kind of next-level ninja.
I understand completely. I didn't take my first class until I was 38. Add in plates and pins in places, and being way overweight I'm far from high speed low drag (actually the reverse). Still I have taken multiple pistol classes from multiple trainers at this point. Only one rifle course, but pistol is going to be more applicable in day to day life and time/money are limited (even more so now with a baby). I am adding a force on force class to my list this December. I've also taken the Medic 1 class from Lonestar Medics, and will probably add another medical class before I bother adding in a second rifle class.

I keep my rifle loaded, and charged. Though that will have to change when my little one becomes ambulatory. Not much of a concern when all she can handle is rolling over at the moment. Already got a locking cabinet bolted down in a closet ready for that. I too keep loaded mags in ammo boxes, plus a chest rig with 6 mags on it next to the rifle. Any of my actual pistols also has at least 3 loaded mags, I don't count my .22 lr revolver as a go to defense pistol so it stays unloaded along with my Ruger 22/45 mk 4. So if I had to run towards shooting I'm not going to be trying to load as I go.
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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

#21

Post by rotor » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:41 pm

If one uses the title of this post alone I would tend to agree. Not going to argue the merits of the "gun instructor" in this case.
There are really only 4 options in a shooting like this, run, hide, volunteer to take a bullet so others can flee, or fight back. I would say most of us would have a difficult time fighting back with a man with an AR-15 and body armor coming at us and no place to run or hide. Voluntarily taking a bullet would not be for me so therefore I would fight and I would have been carrying. Am I trained for that scenario, no. Can I still shoot the BG or at least try, yes and that is what I would do and I am trained at shooting. My wife is the better shot but she almost never carries. I would bet that most people in this small church didn't carry either. But if it were me, I would have been carrying and I would have fought back.


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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

#22

Post by montgomery » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:50 pm

rotor wrote:If one uses the title of this post alone I would tend to agree. But if it were me, I would have been carrying and I would have fought back.
:iagree: :cheers2: :txflag:


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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

#23

Post by montgomery » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:19 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Jago668 wrote:Considering that if you go to any training at all you get more training than 50% of the sworn law enforcement officers in the country receive.
And he made a critical error prior to grabbing his AR15 and responding to the ongoing shooting, and that was to NOT have any already charged magazines on hand for his AR. It is absolutely possible to keep charged mags on hand, without violating any gun safety rules. I wonder how many he dropped on the ground as he ran. But almost nobody can hold 30 5.56 rounds in one hand, let alone stuff them into a magazine while running, with a 7 lb rifle tucked under an arm. It is a safe bet that he probably had fewer than 10 rounds in the mag by the time he got there - the church being just down the block. And he was facing a determined homicidal maniac who had more than one gun, and who had charged mags for those guns.
Mr. Willeford said he fired three rounds at the scene (probably more because most folks that have actually been in a gunfight remember firing less than they actually did). During the chase, he had the presence of mind to check his ammunition. He had one in the chamber, one in the magazine, and none in his pockets. So, he showed up with at least 5 rounds to face a guy who allegedly fired 450 rounds with plenty to spare. Shocked he did not have magazines ready to go - but I am proud he showed up to fight with what he had.

The driver, Mr. Langendorff, had the presence of mind to call 9-1-1 while driving 95 MPH.

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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

#24

Post by troglodyte » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:31 pm

Regarding the guitar/musician statement in the light of the "gun instructor's" comments.

Having a fire extinguisher does not make me a fireman. It does give me a chance to stop, or at least slow down, a blaze until help arrives. If I'm lucky I can put out the fire.

I haven't trained enough. I haven't gone to any big name training schools. I don't have a lot of time or money. I am an NRA instructor in three disciplines and an LTC instructor who tries to do a little training on my own. Just because I'm not Navy Seal Starsky and Hutch certified doesn't mean I can't be effective.

Putting rounds on target, even an armored target, will get inside their OODA loop. At the least this will buy time, at the most the threat in stopped. Just returning fire, hits or miss, will probably make them reassess their desire. Or it may not but at least I have an option. The more time I can tie up keeping the bad guy jumping in his OODA loop the more time I, and others, have to get out or engage and more time for the Calvary to get there.

We must be aware of our limitations and work within them. If a bad guy was to come our auditorium opposite of where I normally sit I don't have a shot. It's almost 200' and there will be a bunch of people in the way. My best action may be helping people get out the door while covering their exit. Or maybe I can work my way towards the shooter for a better shot. I don't know but I play the same mental games that TAM does.

Yes we all need training, and more training, but don't discount someone that can only play Mary had a Little Lamb.

As an guitar aside, reminds me of the Dire Straits lyrics, "You check out Guitar George he knows all the chords. Mind, he's strictly rhythm he doesn't want to make it cry or sing."
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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

#25

Post by The Annoyed Man » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:47 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:In addition to my earlier post, here is a link to an article talking about two churches where armed citizens were able to stop a would-be mass murderer. BTW, I guess Sir Walter Mitty feels that over 50% of the LEOs in this country would not draw their weapon and engage a church shooter, because they have insufficient training. Me thinks he's full of . . . wait, I can't say that, can I?

Chas.
Are you saying the spirit is willing, but the rules don’t allow it? :lol:
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I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy


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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

#26

Post by bblhd672 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:53 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:Me thinks he's full of . . . wait, I can't say that, can I?

Chas.
I’d venture to guess most of us wouldn’t mind if you did!


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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

#27

Post by bblhd672 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:56 pm

Beiruty wrote:A simple question to ask that NRA instructor, how many gun-battles strips you have on your chest?
The question I was thinking about is “were you born an idiot or did that develop over time?”

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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

#28

Post by spectre » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:02 pm

It sounds like he is a gun instructor in the same way that Josh Sugarmann is a gun dealer.
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society,
over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it
and a moral code that glorifies it. - Frédéric Bastiat

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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

#29

Post by Lynyrd » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:09 pm

troglodyte wrote: Having a fire extinguisher does not make me a fireman. It does give me a chance to stop, or at least slow down, a blaze until help arrives. If I'm lucky I can put out the fire.
I have used the comparison to a fire extinguisher many times when curious people ask me why I feel the "need" to carry a gun. That comparison even finally help persuade my employer to allow us to CC at work. I asked him one day why he felt the need to have a fire extinguishers hanging on the wall in every building? Was he afraid something was going to catch on fire? He started to answer, and then saw the comparison. That moment was when he gave in.
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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

#30

Post by The Annoyed Man » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:10 pm

montgomery wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
Jago668 wrote:Considering that if you go to any training at all you get more training than 50% of the sworn law enforcement officers in the country receive.
And he made a critical error prior to grabbing his AR15 and responding to the ongoing shooting, and that was to NOT have any already charged magazines on hand for his AR. It is absolutely possible to keep charged mags on hand, without violating any gun safety rules. I wonder how many he dropped on the ground as he ran. But almost nobody can hold 30 5.56 rounds in one hand, let alone stuff them into a magazine while running, with a 7 lb rifle tucked under an arm. It is a safe bet that he probably had fewer than 10 rounds in the mag by the time he got there - the church being just down the block. And he was facing a determined homicidal maniac who had more than one gun, and who had charged mags for those guns.
Mr. Willeford said he fired three rounds at the scene (probably more because most folks that have actually been in a gunfight remember firing less than they actually did). During the chase, he had the presence of mind to check his ammunition. He had one in the chamber, one in the magazine, and none in his pockets. So, he showed up with at least 5 rounds to face a guy who allegedly fired 450 rounds with plenty to spare. Shocked he did not have magazines ready to go - but I am proud he showed up to fight with what he had.

The driver, Mr. Langendorff, had the presence of mind to call 9-1-1 while driving 95 MPH.
Yes, and this is exactly why I say his actions were heroic, and it is absolutely NOT my intention to beat up on him at all. My point about the mags was mentioned because, no matter how well performed the action is, there’s always room in the after-action analysis to learn from what went right, and what went wrong. Other than running down the street barefooty (I don’t do “barefooty” :mrgreen: ), which isn’t really a mistake, the unloaded magazine thing really jumped out at me when I first heard both him and his cousin’s oral recounting on video of what he did. He described grabbing “a handful” of loose cartridges (5 sounds like a “handful” to me), and said that he literally had no idea how many that was, and then started loading the magazine on the run. Not knowing myself the actual distance that he had to run, although I understand that it wasn’t far at all, I thought geez, what if he got there before he had finished loading the mag? Like I keep repeating, I don’t want to take away from his heroism at all. God love him for having the courage to do what he did. But I just think that a big takeaway for the rest of us is to have at least ONE fully loaded magazine ready to go......more if that’s what makes you comfortable (15 is the number that makes me feel cozy)......and I’ll bet dollars to donuts that our hero made the same calculation after it was wall over. I worry less about damage to magazine springs from long term compression - not really an issue with modern magazines - than I worry about not having enough ammo available when I most need it.

And I was in awe of Mr. Langendorff’s recounting of the story. He was so humble and straightforward in describing it. I was just really impressed by his humility. That was a man’s man, right there, without any bluster. I know they don’t know me from Adam, but I was just REALLY proud of those two guys. I don’t know if either of them drink, but it will be a long time before either of them ever has to pay for a beer again.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy

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