Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

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dlh
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#16

Post by dlh » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:34 pm

:confused5
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:26 pm
ELB wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:28 am
oohrah wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:49 pm
...According to the LEO I interacted with, this GC does no longer apply. ...
I don't believe he is correct, but it is a useless bit of code.
The duty to disclose your LTC still exists. The penalties were removed in 2009 and that may be what the LEO means. A duty without a remedy for noncompliance is effectively neutered.

Chas.
For Charles, ELB, and anybody else who might be interested how about this hypothetical...

Law officer stops you for speeding and asks to see your driver's license and handgun license. You show him your driver's license but refuse to show him your handgun license.

He then arrests you or writes you two citations: one for speeding, the other for failing to obey a lawful order of a police officer under Section 542.501 of the Texas Transportation Code...

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Stat ... =1/29/2015

The lawful order arises by virtue of the language in Section 411.205 of the Government Code...Most violations of the Texas Transportation Code (failing to obey a lawful order would be included in this but I could be mistaken) would be at least a Class C Misdemeanor subject to a monetary fine.

Of course it can be argued the legislature removed the penalty for failing to display a handgun license but what if you get a hard-headed prosecutor (I have known a few) who chose to go with the more general refusal to obey the lawful order charge?

Is there any case law parsing and nuancing this area? Somehow I doubt it but your input is always appreciated.
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#17

Post by 4copas » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:12 pm

Not positive but I think the penalty was removed mainly because of The Texas Motorist Protection Act (HB 1815). I think that’s the bill number. If you are legally allowed to own a firearm, you are legal to carry concealed in your vehicle without a license as long as:

The handgun must NOT be in plain view; it must be concealed.
You are NOT engaged in criminal activity (excluding Class C traffic misdemeanors).
Federal law does NOT prohibit you from possessing a firearm.
You are NOT a member of a criminal gang.
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#18

Post by ELB » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:46 pm

4copas wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:12 pm
Not positive but I think the penalty was removed mainly because of The Texas Motorist Protection Act (HB 1815). I think that’s the bill number.
...
I would have to research it, but I don’t remember it being that way at all. The Removal of the penalty for not showing your LTC with identification was accomplished in a special session after the regular session closed. There had been a bill on regular session that would’ve done away with the requirement altogether, but it did not get voted on before the regular session closed. Charles cotton noted that happened in 2009.

The motorist protection act was passed in 2007.
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4copas
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#19

Post by 4copas » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:16 pm

ELB wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:46 pm
4copas wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:12 pm
Not positive but I think the penalty was removed mainly because of The Texas Motorist Protection Act (HB 1815). I think that’s the bill number.
...
I would have to research it, but I don’t remember it being that way at all. The Removal of the penalty for not showing your LTC with identification was accomplished in a special session after the regular session closed. There had been a bill on regular session that would’ve done away with the requirement altogether, but it did not get voted on before the regular session closed. Charles cotton noted that happened in 2009.

The motorist protection act was passed in 2007.
Ok, wasn’t really sure from memory. Just thought it was part of the reasoning. Me as LTC holder asked for ID required to show LTC if armed, next person non LTC holder asked for ID and armed has nothing to show.
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#20

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:19 pm

As noted, the Motorist Protection Act was passed in 2007 and it did not contain any provisions concerning the duty to display our CHL. However, it was a justification to remove the duty in 2009. When then-Senator Dan Patrick strongly objected, we knew our bill (SB838) was dead.

2009 was a sunset year for DPS, so a bill (HB2730) had to be passed reauthorizing the DPS in order for it to continue in existence. Since the duty to display a CHL is set out in Gov't Code Chp. 411 that deals with the DPS, deleting the penalties for failing to display was germane. We added our language to HB2730. This was during the regular session in 2009.

And that, as Paul Harvey used to say, is the rest of the story.
Chas.

Edited to add: Our language is on page 195 when opening in Word.
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#21

Post by Flightmare » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:05 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:19 pm
And that, as Paul Harvey used to say, is the rest of the story.
Chas.
Or as Mike Rowe now says..."Anyway, that's the way I heard it!" If you haven't heard any of his podcasts called "The Way I Heard It"...I highly recommend them.
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#22

Post by Killadocg23 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:08 pm

Question gents? What if I get pulled over but not carrying? DO I need to say hey officer I have a LTC or produce my license at all if not carrying?

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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#23

Post by ELB » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:44 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:19 pm
... We added our language to HB2730. This was during the regular session in 2009.

And that, as Paul Harvey used to say, is the rest of the story.
Chas.
Yeah, so much for memory. :roll: I finally figured out it was HB 2730 in the regular session, not the special. But I never did find the exact language.
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#24

Post by WTR » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:54 pm

I received my CHL in 2009. My instructor was adiment that the law was just changed and a CHL was no longer required to be shown when you presented your ID. He also stated we did not have to show an ID unless we were being arrested. I went through two fairly serious stops and never revealed I was CCing. It was not until I found and began reading this forum that I began to present my CHL with an ID.

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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#25

Post by oohrah » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:04 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:26 pm
ELB wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:28 am
oohrah wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:49 pm
...According to the LEO I interacted with, this GC does no longer apply. ...
I don't believe he is correct, but it is a useless bit of code.
The duty to disclose your LTC still exists. The penalties were removed in 2009 and that may be what the LEO means. A duty without a remedy for noncompliance is effectively neutered.

Chas.
A big reason I read and like this forum. While it's foolish to expect legal advice from the Internet, I'd defer to opinions on this forum rather than a single LEO.
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#26

Post by KC5AV » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:29 pm

Killadocg23 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:08 pm
Question gents? What if I get pulled over but not carrying? DO I need to say hey officer I have a LTC or produce my license at all if not carrying?
If you're not carrying, you're under no obligation to provide you LTC. However, I tell my students (and I always qualify it as my suggestion, and not a requirement) that I feel it's a good idea to present the LTC even if you're unarmed.
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#27

Post by Scott B. » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:50 pm

My students get the same message. It costs you nothing to show it and tells the officer you've had a background check, etc. Only down side is the lecture you might get about the firearm not doing you any good sitting at home. ;-)
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#28

Post by Killadocg23 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:50 pm

KC5AV wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:29 pm
Killadocg23 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:08 pm
Question gents? What if I get pulled over but not carrying? DO I need to say hey officer I have a LTC or produce my license at all if not carrying?
If you're not carrying, you're under no obligation to provide you LTC. However, I tell my students (and I always qualify it as my suggestion, and not a requirement) that I feel it's a good idea to present the LTC even if you're unarmed.
Thanks much sir !

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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#29

Post by oljames3 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:49 pm

Scott B. wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:50 pm
My students get the same message. It costs you nothing to show it and tells the officer you've had a background check, etc. Only down side is the lecture you might get about the firearm not doing you any good sitting at home. ;-)
No chance of a lecture. If I am awake and dress, I'm carrying.
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#30

Post by LTUME1978 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:38 am

I guess I don't understand why one would not want to show their license to a LEO. They will know you have it and may take it as being unfriendly on your part. I always hand mine to the LEO when I have been stopped (2 times in 10 years) and do all of the other things advised when I took the class with Charles. LEO has a tough enough job as it is. Both stops (one for a tail light that was out and a failure to use my turn signal, the other for speeding) ended up with a polite conversation and warning tickets. May have gone that way anyway but one never knows and making life for the LEO as easy as possible never hurts.

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