Pulled over ... while walking

[mgood]

I lived in Irving on Beltline and Northgate. Late nineties and I had my CHL and my pistola with me on a late night walk. It was probably 1:00 am or so.

I'm headed back toward my apartment and see two police cars and a pickup truck at a little park. I guess the officers were just finishing up their discussion with the pickup driver and letting him go. I've been watching this and trying to figure out what they were up to for the past couple blocks and trying to decide if I should turn off on a different street just to avoide whatever it was. I about directly across the street from them before they notice me. They look at me and I waved and kept walking. One officer says "Hey!" I say "Hi," and keep walking. The guy says "Come over here," so I do. They asked me what I was doing and I told them I was just out for a walk. Asked me for my ID and I handed over the DL and the CHL together. I was asked if I was carrying and where and I told them. One officer reached under my shirt and removed my pistol from the holster and unloads it. I'm wondering what they think I've done. I had long hair at the time and figured that just based on that I was probably presumed to be guilty of something. They asked why I was out walking so late. I told them I worked until about 10 and when I couldn't get to sleep, I decided to take a walk.
But the conversation soon turned to my Smith & Wesson Performance Center Shorty Forty. At least one of the officers was into guns and was fascinated by mine. We had a friendly discussion of guns and then they returned my pistol and let me go.

It could have been bad. They could have asked what I was doing and I could have said, "I'm minding my own business. What are you doing?" (I'm usually respectful to LEOs. But I sometimes have a tendency to say things I shouldn't and I was already in a foul mood about something at work, which was why I couldn't sleep and was out walking it off.)
Turned out fine though except that I always wondered why they stopped me in the first place. I guess some long-haired guy walking down the street at one in the morning is suspicious.

[flintknapper]

At the point in the relevant story that this resistance would have been offered (ie when he went to apply handcuffs) the op's id had already been taken. If you "hand the cops butt to them" after they have called in your id, how long do you think it will take before the swat team kicks in your door?

Now I agree that there are bad cops out there, and that unlawful detentions, and arrests do take place. I don't believe it is as often as people seem to think. I agree with what has been said though, on th estreet is not the place to fight with the police, especially by force. If your arrest was unlawful a first year law student should be able to get you off on the criminal charge, and you should then file a civil suit.

About the same amount of time it took me to drive over to my Lawyer's place of business (didn't go HOME).

I bet that is an interesting story... Still not something I would recommend.

My reply was hypothetical (same as your swat team), I want to clarify that.

[seamusTX]

Turned out fine though except that I always wondered why they stopped me in the first place. I guess some long-haired guy walking down the street at one in the morning is suspicious.

I have had long hair for a decade now, and it does not get me undue attention. My age (50s) probably puts me outside certain profiles, and there are a lot of old hippies and harmless weirdos down here on the sandbar.

Police officers don't like it when someone shows interest in a stop. It is possible that someone scoping out an incident is an accomplice of the person that they are arresting.

You know the famous saying, "Move along, nothing to see here."

- Jim

[mgood]

Police officers don't like it when someone shows interest in a stop. It is possible that someone scoping out an incident is an accomplice of the person that they are arresting.

You know the famous saying, "Move along, nothing to see here."

Yeah, I was moving until they told me to come to them. I was on the oposite side of the street from them just walking along.
But they didn't know that. I don't believe they were aware of my presence until I was directly across the street from them. I saw them from a block or two away and considered changing directions to avoid them. But I was afraid that if they had seen me and saw me change directions that might look more suspicious.

But yeah, I wasn't really offended or anything. Just sort of curious about why they stopped me.

[seamusTX]

Yeah, I was moving until they told me to come to them. I was on the oposite side of the street from them just walking along.
But they didn't know that. I don't believe they were aware of my presence until I was directly across the street from them. I saw them from a block or two away and considered changing directions to avoid them. But I was afraid that if they had seen me and saw me change directions that might look more suspicious.

It's a catch-22: Stick around and look suspicious. Leave and look suspicious.

Police work is not easy. I appreciate the dangerous work that they do., but I remain aware of my rights.

- Jim

[Frost]

Moving to New Hampshire is growing more appealing to me every day now. I probably would put up with this behaviour if it happened to me here, but if i had the activist base in NH to count on I would feel a lot better about challenging them and asserting my rights.

[seamusTX]

I dunno. Southeastern New Hampshire is becoming a suburb of Boston. These more intrusive policing methods are tolerated when big-city crime becomes a problem.

That mentality is so ingrained in Chicago that I was not aware of it until I moved away.

- Jim

[seamusTX]

PC 9.31(b) The use of force against another is not justified:
(2) to resist an arrest or search that the actor knows is being made by a peace officer, or by a person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his direction, even though the arrest or search is unlawful, unless the resistance is justified under Subsection (c);
(c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified:
(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary.
(d) The use of deadly force is not justified under this subchapter except as provided in Sections 9.32, 9.33, and 9.34.

- Jim

[Frost]

I dunno. Southeastern New Hampshire is becoming a suburb of Boston. These more intrusive policing methods are tolerated when big-city crime becomes a problem.

True, but NH has things like the Liberty Alliance; you cant throw a rock in the state house without hitting one of those guys. Where else can you dial a number on your cell phone after a officer detains you for simply exercising your rights and have a half dozen activists show up in seconds with a camera. In that case it just happened that Ridley was walking to a meeting of those activists, but it was still awesome.

I strongly feel the need to do something with the growth of the police/surveillance/nanny state, and i cant think of a better idea then concentrating activism in NH. God knows the libertarian party has not gone anywhere, even after they abandoned their principles to run a more "mainstream" candidate. It is probably to little and to late considering the apathy and impotence of the citizens to restrain state, federal or even in most cases local government, but if there is a "hill worth dying on" in this fight i imagine i will find it in NH with other activists by my side.

[seamusTX]

That was an interesting encounter. Did the talkative cop with the mirror sunglasses have a typical Manchester accent? He sounded to me like he was from Boston.

It may be possible to keep New Hampshire "live free or die." Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

- Jim

[HankB]

. . . I guess they didn't really suspect me of being intoxicated after all as I was given no sobriety test or breathalyzer.

Since you were NOT driving a motor vehicle, "implied consent" doesn't kick in . . . you were under NO legal obligation to submit to any sort of sobriety test or breathalyzer.

Sorry, flb_78, but resisting arrest usually gets you tazed or "lit up" these days.

I absolutely agree that once an LEO utters the magic words "You're Under Arrest" one should comply and shut up . . . fight in court, not on the street. But it doesn't sound like the guy was arrested, just cuffed . . . for taking a walk. This sounds to me a lot like assault.

So the question is . . . is resisting handcuffing a crime when one is NOT under arrest? Can it be argued that handcuffing an individual who is NOT under arrest and has committed no crime is excessive force? Is there any established case law on this?

At the very least, filing a formal complaint against the officer(s) involved is called for . . . maybe even paying a lawyer a couple of hundred bucks to write it on your behalf. It may not provide any relief to you now, but eventually an officer with an attitude problem like this WILL cross the line in a serious way . . . and then complaint letters of excessive/improper force, failure to follow proper procedures, etc., WILL come back to haunt him . . . and he'll get what's coming to him through the legal system.

[seamusTX]

. . . is resisting handcuffing a crime when one is NOT under arrest? Can it be argued that handcuffing an individual who is NOT under arrest and has committed no crime is excessive force? Is there any established case law on this?

There are hundreds of court decisions, SCOTUS and lower federal and state levels, about restraint and arrest. They are beyond my comprehension.

There is no bright-line rule.

I have two simple rules:

• Get crosswise the cops=go to jail, pay bond, go to court, pay a lawyer
• Be polite=go home under your own power with few or no consequences

I have a job to do, a family to support, and bills to pay.

Those who can afford to prove a point are more than welcome to do so. I support them, but I'm not going to be a test case.

- Jim

[blackdog8200]

. I probably could have better communicated it was in my shoulder holster on my left side but I was a little nervous at this point just because it was the first time I was stopped while carrying and he seemed to have an attitude I was up to something walking around in the middle of the night. He fumbled around for a second trying to find it in the coats outer front pocket and then had me clarify......


"I can tell you've been smoking or drinking, I can smell it one you" ... What!? I think to myself. Now I had a beer with dinner but that had to have been a good hour hour and a half ago.


.

First off (I'm not picking on you but you raise an important point here) There is no "Legal Limit of Intoxication" when you are carrying a hand gun. Guns+Alcohol will get your CHL revoked and possibly land you in jail.

When you are nervous....even a little "beer smell" will make you look "intoxicated". This is like a PI or public intoxication, which is called "Contempt of Cop" since they really don't have to prove anything. You get disarmed, go to jail, pay the fine, maybe get your gun back and possibly lose your CHL.

Just an FYI to all out there. To be a good "citizen" and use your CHL means you yield some of your "rights." I don't like it much either but that is the price to carry.

Funny thing, you would have been well withing your "rights" to have carried a 12 gauge shotgun in the open....but I bet you get a few looks.

Be safe out there!