Unpleasant encounter with Rosenberg LEO

Most CHL/LEO contacts are positive, how about yours? Bloopers are fun, but no names please, if it will cause a LEO problems!

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StrangeBulge
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Unpleasant encounter with Rosenberg LEO

#1

Post by StrangeBulge » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:38 pm

Headed home from early voting, noticed Rosenberg PD cruiser passing cars behind me, exceeding the 30 mph speed limit , other moving violations, no lights no siren. Once directly behind me she hit the lights and the siren.

I pulled into a parking lot, put the car in park, rolled down all four windows, turned radio off, was digging dl and chl out of wallet as she approached. In friendly and non confrontational manner she asked for my license and insurance ( which was still in the glove box). I handed her my dl and chl with my left hand while keeping my right hand on the wheel and returned my left hand to the top of the wheel.

She reacted badly ... placed her left hand on her pistol, removed the retention, stepped back behind me, and demanded in a shrill voice "ARE YOU ARMED!" Calmly stated that i was armed. She asked "WHERE IS IT!". Calmly stated on my right hip. Was instructed "not to reach for it", She asked again for the insurance card, calmly told her that the card was in the glove box and asked if she would be ok with me opening the glove box to produce the card ....

she starts in with the 100 questions while still standing behind me were i cannot turn and make eye contact ...
At some point she noticed that i was becoming annoyed, stated that i had an attitude, stated that her posture was for officer safety and that i had been pulled over for rolling through a stop sign. I informed her that " I understand you are extremely uncomfortable with me being armed".

She instructed me to keep my hands on the wheel and took a position behind the passenger side of the cruiser while calling the stop via remote.

...

Got a warning, was told that i did not need to appear, no fine etc, thanked me for keeping my hands on the wheel and that me being armed was "perfectly legal" ... with her hand still on her pistol ... some people are too tense and should not be cops!
Does this pistol make a strange bulge on my ... ?
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Re: Unpleasant encounter with Rosenberg LEO

#2

Post by C-dub » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:59 pm

Maybe she was new and needs a few more positive encounters with CHLers and maybe she'll calm down a bit. I never really want an officer to become complacent, but knowing when someone is a threat or not a threat can really make a difference in an officer's longevity/career.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.
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Re: Unpleasant encounter with Rosenberg LEO

#3

Post by carlson1 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:13 pm

StrangeBulge wrote: ... some people are too tense and should not be cops!
The day they stop being "tense" and on top of their duty they will get killed.

It may be as said above she may be new and just not had much contact with people with CHL's. She may have also had a argument with someone right before stopping you. The police have bad days too.

It may be just me, but because someone hands over a CHL does not mean they are Mr. Good Citizen. The CHL could be suspended. (example: many people drive with suspended drivers license)

At least you were not pulled out of the car, disarmed, and searched for "her protection." It doesn't sound like it was too bad. A plus side no citation. :cheers2:
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Re: Unpleasant encounter with Rosenberg LEO

#4

Post by tbrown » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:26 pm

Encounters like this are why I changed to an out-of-state RKBA license. :thumbs2:
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Re: Unpleasant encounter with Rosenberg LEO

#5

Post by C-dub » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:27 pm

carlson1 wrote: At least you were not pulled out of the car, disarmed, and searched for "her protection." It doesn't sound like it was too bad. A plus side no citation. :cheers2:
That's true. Even without being arrested, it could have been worse.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.
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Re: Unpleasant encounter with Rosenberg LEO

#6

Post by Blindref757 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:35 pm

I keep my insurance card on my visor so that it is already in hand when they get to the car. I usually get my billfold out prior to them getting out of their cruiser and have all 3 documents in hand when they get to the window. If I were a cop, I wouldn't want anyone (armed or not) to reach into a glove box! I think of it as a matter of preparedness. I carry because I want to be prepared. I also know that I'm not a perfect driver so I need to be prepared for an encounter with officers from time to time. I always try to think of it from their perspective. They are very vulnerable when they are just outside your car window and there are thousands of dashcam videos showing just how quickly things can go south for them at that point. I believe it is my duty as a CHL holder to make their encounter with me as easy as possible.

Any stop you walk away from without an invoice is a good one!


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Re: Unpleasant encounter with Rosenberg LEO

#7

Post by Cedar Park Dad » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:10 am

StrangeBulge wrote:Headed home from early voting, noticed Rosenberg PD cruiser passing cars behind me, exceeding the 30 mph speed limit , other moving violations, no lights no siren. Once directly behind me she hit the lights and the siren.

I pulled into a parking lot, put the car in park, rolled down all four windows, turned radio off, was digging dl and chl out of wallet as she approached. In friendly and non confrontational manner she asked for my license and insurance ( which was still in the glove box). I handed her my dl and chl with my left hand while keeping my right hand on the wheel and returned my left hand to the top of the wheel.

She reacted badly ... placed her left hand on her pistol, removed the retention, stepped back behind me, and demanded in a shrill voice "ARE YOU ARMED!" Calmly stated that i was armed. She asked "WHERE IS IT!". Calmly stated on my right hip. Was instructed "not to reach for it", She asked again for the insurance card, calmly told her that the card was in the glove box and asked if she would be ok with me opening the glove box to produce the card ....

she starts in with the 100 questions while still standing behind me were i cannot turn and make eye contact ...
At some point she noticed that i was becoming annoyed, stated that i had an attitude, stated that her posture was for officer safety and that i had been pulled over for rolling through a stop sign. I informed her that " I understand you are extremely uncomfortable with me being armed".

She instructed me to keep my hands on the wheel and took a position behind the passenger side of the cruiser while calling the stop via remote.

...

Got a warning, was told that i did not need to appear, no fine etc, thanked me for keeping my hands on the wheel and that me being armed was "perfectly legal" ... with her hand still on her pistol ... some people are too tense and should not be cops!

Wow.
1. You did everything right.
2. Had you not you might be around to type the encounter up. Thats a bad shoot waiting to happen.

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Re: Unpleasant encounter with Rosenberg LEO

#8

Post by RPBrown » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:35 am

tbrown wrote:Encounters like this are why I changed to an out-of-state RKBA license. :thumbs2:
Not sure what is meant by this quote. Even with an out of state license you still have to present to LEO in Texas. Although there is no longer a penalty for not presenting, you still are required to do so.
I think if I were still a LEO, I would be more cautious of someone with an out of state CHL on a Texas DL than if they had a Texas CHL. Just my .02
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Re: Unpleasant encounter with Rosenberg LEO

#9

Post by Abraham » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:41 am

StrangeBulge,

I would have a respectful talk with her Chief.

If she's that tense, what would've happened if you too had gotten shrill and obnoxious, especially given her unjust treatment of you...?

Yes, it ended up o.k., due it sounds like mainly because YOU were cool, calm and professional, rather than reacting justly aggravated with her ill treatment of you.

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Re: Unpleasant encounter with Rosenberg LEO

#10

Post by Keith B » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:58 am

tbrown wrote:Encounters like this are why I changed to an out-of-state RKBA license. :thumbs2:
What does that do? You are required to show your CHL by law, even an out of state license. Yes, I know there is no penalty and they will not see you have a CHL when they run your DL, but you are still legally required to present your CHL when asked for ID. If you want to not have to do that you can surrender your CHL(s) and carry under MPA.

Me personally, I would rather them know up front I have a gun than them find out later in the stop when they may decide I was not forthcoming with the fact I was armed.
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Re: Unpleasant encounter with Rosenberg LEO

#11

Post by StrangeBulge » Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:31 am

Abraham wrote:StrangeBulge,

I would have a respectful talk with her Chief.

If she's that tense, what would've happened if you too had gotten shrill and obnoxious, especially given her unjust treatment of you...?

Yes, it ended up o.k., due it sounds like mainly because YOU were cool, calm and professional, rather than reacting justly aggravated with her ill treatment of you.
I've looked into her past this morning. She has been an officer for less than a year.

I will email the chief and mention that walking around "hand on pistol" is probably not the best way to maintain "officer safety". I will also mention i do not enjoy being questioned from behind by an officer, potentially at gunpoint. It is really hard to have a conversation once the OODA loop engages. She is obviously not realizing that her reaction escalates the situation instead of defusing it. I have no desire to get shot either, so I identified.
Does this pistol make a strange bulge on my ... ?
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Re: Unpleasant encounter with Rosenberg LEO

#12

Post by VMI77 » Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:47 pm

carlson1 wrote:
StrangeBulge wrote: ... some people are too tense and should not be cops!
The day they stop being "tense" and on top of their duty they will get killed.

It may be as said above she may be new and just not had much contact with people with CHL's. She may have also had a argument with someone right before stopping you. The police have bad days too.

It may be just me, but because someone hands over a CHL does not mean they are Mr. Good Citizen. The CHL could be suspended. (example: many people drive with suspended drivers license)

At least you were not pulled out of the car, disarmed, and searched for "her protection." It doesn't sound like it was too bad. A plus side no citation. :cheers2:

I guess all the cops that have stopped me wanted to get killed then, since none of them have acted like the one in the op. None of them were "tense." All of them were had situational awareness. And I don't get your logic. And why would someone intending to shoot an officer hand over ID?
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Re: Unpleasant encounter with Rosenberg LEO

#13

Post by carlson1 » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:49 pm

VMI77 wrote:
carlson1 wrote:
StrangeBulge wrote: ... some people are too tense and should not be cops!
The day they stop being "tense" and on top of their duty they will get killed.

It may be as said above she may be new and just not had much contact with people with CHL's. She may have also had a argument with someone right before stopping you. The police have bad days too.

It may be just me, but because someone hands over a CHL does not mean they are Mr. Good Citizen. The CHL could be suspended. (example: many people drive with suspended drivers license)

At least you were not pulled out of the car, disarmed, and searched for "her protection." It doesn't sound like it was too bad. A plus side no citation. :cheers2:

I guess all the cops that have stopped me wanted to get killed then, since none of them have acted like the one in the op. None of them were "tense." All of them were had situational awareness. And I don't get your logic. And why would someone intending to shoot an officer hand over ID?
Your logic assumes everyone with a CHL is a stand up man/woman. I believe most Officers will take the safer approach (not making excuses for this officer, but I wasn't there)
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Re: Unpleasant encounter with Rosenberg LEO

#14

Post by LabRat » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:50 pm

StrangeBulge wrote:Headed home from early voting, noticed Rosenberg PD cruiser passing cars behind me, exceeding the 30 mph speed limit , other moving violations, no lights no siren. Once directly behind me she hit the lights and the siren.

I pulled into a parking lot, put the car in park, rolled down all four windows, turned radio off, was digging dl and chl out of wallet as she approached. In friendly and non confrontational manner she asked for my license and insurance ( which was still in the glove box). I handed her my dl and chl with my left hand while keeping my right hand on the wheel and returned my left hand to the top of the wheel.

She reacted badly ... placed her left hand on her pistol, removed the retention, stepped back behind me, and demanded in a shrill voice "ARE YOU ARMED!" Calmly stated that i was armed. She asked "WHERE IS IT!". Calmly stated on my right hip. Was instructed "not to reach for it", She asked again for the insurance card, calmly told her that the card was in the glove box and asked if she would be ok with me opening the glove box to produce the card ....

she starts in with the 100 questions while still standing behind me were i cannot turn and make eye contact ...
At some point she noticed that i was becoming annoyed, stated that i had an attitude, stated that her posture was for officer safety and that i had been pulled over for rolling through a stop sign. I informed her that " I understand you are extremely uncomfortable with me being armed".

She instructed me to keep my hands on the wheel and took a position behind the passenger side of the cruiser while calling the stop via remote.

...

Got a warning, was told that i did not need to appear, no fine etc, thanked me for keeping my hands on the wheel and that me being armed was "perfectly legal" ... with her hand still on her pistol ... some people are too tense and should not be cops!

Traffic stops are dangerous and there is a certain amount of tension just due to the adversarial encounter....after all, no one wants to be stopped either correctly or incorrectly. As Texas CHLs we keep remembering that a courteous opening into a traffic stop contact is a good way to keep the tension to a minimum.

But I think the police can also be courteous....it has nothing to do with "not being cautious or not being vigilant". Those are 2 totally different concepts. 1 is a state of mental preparedness (calm but alert and vigilant) and the other is the physical manifestation of an failure to mentally prepare (escalation attitude, reaching for her gun, yelling, demanding control, etc.) for an encounter.

I'm originally from North Carolina. The Highway Patrol Troopers are some of the most competent, if not nicest folks you'd ever have to meet in a traffic stop. They smile, they're courteous; "Yes sir", "Yes ma'am", "Here's your ticket." "Please step out of the vehicle", etc. But they will shoot you in a heartbeat if they're forced into it. They're not unprepared, they're not letting their vigilance down, they know what they're doing; period. And it translates into a calm understanding of what is happening and what might have to happen; but only when it's required.

Give the account provided as written, the officer escalated the tension of the encounter because she was unprepared for an a citizen having a firearm. That's what she reacted to, not fumbling for the license or other documents. It appears that she got scared and her flight-or-fight adrenaline kicked into overdrive and you can see the result, posture, voice pitch change and aggressiveness, etc.

It's hard to fathom the idea of being a Texas police officer and not being aware that guns are common given the laws and practices in the state, but I guess it's possible.

This unpreparedness and the subsequent physical reactions are not a good indicator that she is fully trained. Somethings lacking here if this is a common physical response to stress.

Also, given the account of her approach (aggressive driving, speeding, etc.), she may have been carrying a previous problem encounter with her. She needs to remember that Driver #2 right now, doesn't know anything about Driver #1 that happened 5 minutes ago. That problem is hers, not Driver #2's - unless she continues it into the next stop.

This encounter ended well; but did not go well. Her parting with the warning and "being armed is ok" reaction indicates she somewhat came to her senses after her brain processed the event. She may have even been a little embarrassed.

Kudos to the OP for staying calm, taking the de-escalation approach and keeping this situation from getting dicey. The officer benefited even in her panic mode.

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Re: Unpleasant encounter with Rosenberg LEO

#15

Post by gljjt » Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:06 pm

carlson1 wrote:
VMI77 wrote:
carlson1 wrote:
StrangeBulge wrote: ... some people are too tense and should not be cops!
The day they stop being "tense" and on top of their duty they will get killed.

It may be as said above she may be new and just not had much contact with people with CHL's. She may have also had a argument with someone right before stopping you. The police have bad days too.

It may be just me, but because someone hands over a CHL does not mean they are Mr. Good Citizen. The CHL could be suspended. (example: many people drive with suspended drivers license)

At least you were not pulled out of the car, disarmed, and searched for "her protection." It doesn't sound like it was too bad. A plus side no citation. :cheers2:

I guess all the cops that have stopped me wanted to get killed then, since none of them have acted like the one in the op. None of them were "tense." All of them were had situational awareness. And I don't get your logic. And why would someone intending to shoot an officer hand over ID?
Your logic assumes everyone with a CHL is a stand up man/woman. I believe most Officers will take the safer approach (not making excuses for this officer, but I wasn't there)
And yet statistically a Texas CHL holder is more law abiding (lower arrest rate) than a peace officer. Go figure.

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