Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

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Jay2121
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#31

Post by Jay2121 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:16 pm

I agree with LTUME1978 it cost nothing and adds no time to hand it over. It is with my license. LEO's have a hard enough job this just make things easier for them and give the impression of full cooperation and add to that a good attitude. ( from a LEO friend of mine) Why this is even is a question is beyond me. Just show it and be on your way.

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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#32

Post by jbirds1210 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:33 am

Papa_Tiger wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:46 pm
Good luck getting officers to understand the law if you refuse to ID only when you are lawfully detained (i.e. non-consentual or "Terry" stop with reasonable, articulable suspicion that a crime has been or is about to be committed).
Some of them have a pretty good idea what the law is. I am glad we do not live in a "show me your papers" atmosphere.
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#33

Post by WildRose » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:18 pm

apostate wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:18 pm
DPS requires a copy of resident state DL or ID for nonresident applicants. I'm not sure what they would do if somebody sent a copy of their passport instead. :mrgreen:
Since a Passport is Federal rather than State Issued I don't believe that alone would be accepted. I just copied everything I had and sent it all in to be sure all my bases were covered including my PP, pocket PP, ID, and DL last time I renewed.
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#34

Post by WildRose » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:21 pm

Papa_Tiger wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:46 pm
ScottDLS wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:11 pm
So here's how the law reads:
[GC §411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE.
If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder’s person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder’s driver’s license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder’s handgun license.
So the question I've heard raised is when may a LEO or Magistrate DEMAND (with the force of law) that a person display identification. If you're stopped while driving, the transportation code allows the LEO to demand a DL. Failure to produce such could result in being cited for driving without a license. However, theoretically, a traffic stop must be based on probable cause that a crime is taking place or is about to take place. Simply because driving without a license is a crime does not mean that every person driving can be stopped. There is Federal case law to back this up. Carrying a handgun without a license is (sometimes) a crime, but it's not clear whether it is sufficient probable cause to stop you, or even enough reasonable, articulable, suspicion, for a "Terry" stop and detain. Since there is no "stop and ID law" in Texas, it is not clear that a LEO or magistrate may lawfully detain you and legally DEMAND ID. Even if a LEO has probable cause to arrest you...you are only required to identify yourself by truthfully giving your name and date of birth. I guess the point is if you are carrying and not committing any crime, the police have no probable cause to arrest you, search you, and then find that you have a weapon. If they did find one, and you were not licensed as required, then theoretically the charge would be thrown out due to the search being unlawful... Now in reality, good luck with that. :evil2:
Guess what they try to charge you with if you are not under arrest, but they want to get your ID?

Failure to ID. Many police officers are not familiar with the actual text of TPC 38.02 which reads:

(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.

(b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has:

(1) lawfully arrested the person;

(2) lawfully detained the person;  or

(3) requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offense.

(c) Except as provided by Subsections (d) and (e), an offense under this section is:

(1) a Class C misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (a);  or

(2) a Class B misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (b).

(d) If it is shown on the trial of an offense under this section that the defendant was a fugitive from justice at the time of the offense, the offense is:

(1) a Class B misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (a);  or

(2) a Class A misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (b).

(e) If conduct that constitutes an offense under this section also constitutes an offense under Section 106.07, Alcoholic Beverage Code , the actor may be prosecuted only under Section 106.07 .
Nowhere in this statute are you compelled to give an ID if you are detained, but there are criminal penalties if you give false information while detained. It is an add-on charge if you are lawfully arrested. Good luck getting officers to understand the law if you refuse to ID only when you are lawfully detained (i.e. non-consentual or "Terry" stop with reasonable, articulable suspicion that a crime has been or is about to be committed).
If fail to do so you'll likely be arrested and charged with Obstruction. You "can" beat the charge, but you probably won't beat the ride.

If they truly suspect you of committing a crime but lack real probable cause/RAS they will look or provoke you until they find one.

I don't like bowing to tyrants but as long as they treat me with respect I'll be respectful and fully cooperate because I don't have anything to hide and I'm not looking to create confrontations with LEO's. I'd rather be on their "good guy" list.
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#35

Post by Liberty » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:07 am

WildRose wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:21 pm

If fail to do so you'll likely be arrested and charged with Obstruction. You "can" beat the charge, but you probably won't beat the ride.

If they truly suspect you of committing a crime but lack real probable cause/RAS they will look or provoke you until they find one.

I don't like bowing to tyrants but as long as they treat me with respect I'll be respectful and fully cooperate because I don't have anything to hide and I'm not looking to create confrontations with LEO's. I'd rather be on their "good guy" list.
We are not required to have an ID while performing nonregulated activities. So Joe citizen can not be expected to produce one when possessing one is not required. Talking to the LEO these days can be dangerous to your safety. They seem to be imprisoning a lot of people lately whose only crimes are talking to the LEO. Most lawyers these days advise keeping one's mouth shut when confronted by LEO.
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#36

Post by WildRose » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:13 am

Liberty wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:07 am
WildRose wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:21 pm

If fail to do so you'll likely be arrested and charged with Obstruction. You "can" beat the charge, but you probably won't beat the ride.

If they truly suspect you of committing a crime but lack real probable cause/RAS they will look or provoke you until they find one.

I don't like bowing to tyrants but as long as they treat me with respect I'll be respectful and fully cooperate because I don't have anything to hide and I'm not looking to create confrontations with LEO's. I'd rather be on their "good guy" list.
We are not required to have an ID while performing nonregulated activities. So Joe citizen can not be expected to produce one when possessing one is not required. Talking to the LEO these days can be dangerous to your safety. They seem to be imprisoning a lot of people lately whose only crimes are talking to the LEO. Most lawyers these days advise keeping one's mouth shut when confronted by LEO.
And failing to be polite and cooperative will only provoke them. If you're carrying the last thing you want to do is provoke a cop.
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#37

Post by crazy2medic » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:40 am

Last time I was pulled over (for driving in the wrong lane, there's a wrong lane? Who knew!) DPS Trooper first question was "sir do you have any firearms in your vehicle?" I told him .45 on my left hip and .45 carbine under the backseat, his reply was "OK" he asked for my license, I handed him my DL, LTC, and Security Commission, he handed me back the LTC, Commission, wrote me a warning, we talked about the Trooper that lives in my son's apartment complex and went our separate ways!
I see no reason to not present your credentials, if it will put them at ease, I'm good with that!
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#38

Post by Papa_Tiger » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:55 am

WildRose wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:13 am
Liberty wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:07 am
WildRose wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:21 pm

If fail to do so you'll likely be arrested and charged with Obstruction. You "can" beat the charge, but you probably won't beat the ride.

If they truly suspect you of committing a crime but lack real probable cause/RAS they will look or provoke you until they find one.

I don't like bowing to tyrants but as long as they treat me with respect I'll be respectful and fully cooperate because I don't have anything to hide and I'm not looking to create confrontations with LEO's. I'd rather be on their "good guy" list.
We are not required to have an ID while performing nonregulated activities. So Joe citizen can not be expected to produce one when possessing one is not required. Talking to the LEO these days can be dangerous to your safety. They seem to be imprisoning a lot of people lately whose only crimes are talking to the LEO. Most lawyers these days advise keeping one's mouth shut when confronted by LEO.
And failing to be polite and cooperative will only provoke them. If you're carrying the last thing you want to do is provoke a cop.
Ooh, wouldn't want to "provoke" a cop by politely exercising my rights. Last I checked we were a country and state with the rule of LAW, not a police state or dictatorship, although we may be steadily marching that direction...

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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#39

Post by Grumpy1993 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:29 pm

WildRose wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:21 pm

If they truly suspect you of committing a crime but lack real probable cause/RAS they will look or provoke you until they find one.

I don't like bowing to tyrants but as long as they treat me with respect I'll be respectful and fully cooperate because I don't have anything to hide and I'm not looking to create confrontations with LEO's. I'd rather be on their "good guy" list.
It's pretty obvious who's really creating confrontations and not treating people with respect.
Sometimes you can't tell if you're just in a bad mood or everyone around you is being annoying.

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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#40

Post by mojo84 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:51 pm

crazy2medic wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:40 am
Last time I was pulled over (for driving in the wrong lane, there's a wrong lane? Who knew!) DPS Trooper first question was "sir do you have any firearms in your vehicle?" I told him .45 on my left hip and .45 carbine under the backseat, his reply was "OK" he asked for my license, I handed him my DL, LTC, and Security Commission, he handed me back the LTC, Commission, wrote me a warning, we talked about the Trooper that lives in my son's apartment complex and went our separate ways!
I see no reason to not present your credentials, if it will put them at ease, I'm good with that!
Just curious, which lane were you driving in?


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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#41

Post by crazy2medic » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:36 am

Left! Apparently it's only for passing even though I wasn't the only one driving in the left lane!
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#42

Post by Scott B. » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:03 am

crazy2medic wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:36 am
Left! Apparently it's only for passing even though I wasn't the only one driving in the left lane!
Were you driving on the grand parkway yesterday? I was considering doing a pit maneuver to get that left lane camper out of the way.
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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#43

Post by KLB » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:11 am

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:14 pm
As far as I know, there is no legal requirement to obtain either a DL or an "identification certificate" so it could be entirely impossible for one to comply with this law as written.
Is it possible to get an HGL with neither a DL nor a state-issued ID?

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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#44

Post by mojo84 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:18 am

crazy2medic wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:36 am
Left! Apparently it's only for passing even though I wasn't the only one driving in the left lane!
That's been a law for a long time. People driving in the left lane and slowing down traffic is a big issue around here. Glad he brought it to your attention and you got off with a warning.

www.txdot.gov/driver/share-road/highway-driving.html


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Re: Don't need to show LTC to LEO when carrying.

#45

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:21 am

mojo84 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:18 am
crazy2medic wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:36 am
Left! Apparently it's only for passing even though I wasn't the only one driving in the left lane!
That's been a law for a long time. People driving in the left lane and slowing down traffic is a big issue around here. Glad he brought it to your attention and you got off with a warning.

www.txdot.gov/driver/share-road/highway-driving.html
:iagree:

I believe that was the law when I took my first drivers license test (1986 in Oregon), and it has consistently been the law ever since in all of the places I have lived, including 6 different states, and one foreign country (it's a huge deal in Germany). It's one of the most consistent traffic laws that you will ever find, and for good reason. People who misuse the left lane by driving in it instead of correctly using it for passing only cause very dangerous situations. I have personally witnessed 2 fatal accidents that have been a direct result of this practice.
Ding dong, the witch is dead

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