Duty to Provide LTC on Voluntary Identification to LEO?

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Soccerdad1995
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Re: Duty to Provide LTC on Voluntary Identification to LEO?

#16

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:56 pm

striker55 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:48 pm
Because I carry every time I go out of my house I volunteer my LTC whenever I'm asked for ID. Every time the officer says it's not needed.
As a practical matter, I do the same, and have the same result. That also covers me in case I happen to forget that I left my range bag in the back of my SUV, etc. Of course nowadays who can afford to actually use any ammo, lol.

The closest I have come to a judgement call was when I was rear ended shortly after getting my CHL. We pulled into an empty lot and the police were called. When the officer arrived, I was standing outside of my vehicle, and I had purposely left my gun in the center console, inside the car. The officer and I stepped away so she could get my statement, and she started by asking for my ID. I gave her both just to be safe, but I was probably not "carrying" since the gun was a good 20+ feet away inside of a locked car. It was a moot point since she just said she didn't need it and never even asked if I was armed.
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Re: Duty to Provide LTC on Voluntary Identification to LEO?

#17

Post by RoyGBiv » Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:57 pm

I've got no problem showing my LTC upon any official interaction with LE.

Better to be forthcoming and bring down the temperatures than to let whatever I'm irritated about bring about unnecessary tension.

That said.... If you ask me for permission to search my vehicle.... "I've always got time enough to wait for your dog." :lol:
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.!
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Re: Duty to Provide LTC on Voluntary Identification to LEO?

#18

Post by Oldgringo » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:15 pm

Given today's state of the country, BLM bull, and the vicious anarchist left-wing dipocrap attacks on the POPO, I think I would have smilingly shown him both and asked him how I could help him......even if he was acting an arrogant ass.

We either Back the Blue or we don't? They have enough problems/issues with the others without our law quoting petulant demand for their correctness.

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Re: Duty to Provide LTC on Voluntary Identification to LEO?

#19

Post by C-dub » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:22 pm

airbornecpa wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:15 pm
Something I have wondered about but never had happen to me until tonight, note I was NOT carrying:

I was acting as an intermediary on a return of property for my son's his future ex to return property and cash. She asked that I meet her at a neutral location for her to transfer said items to me. asked that I meet her at a neutral location with She moved the day before. I'd been waiting for a while when my truck was lit up by blue and red flashing lights. My initial thought was that someone had called me in for being "suspicious". That wasn't the case, she called the the Sheriff's office for a civil stand by. I thought okay, no big deal. Deputy asked me if I knew a "son's name" and who his wife was. I identified that I knew my son and provided daughter-in law's name. He asked for my driver's license, I declined as this was a "voluntary" interaction and I was free to go, but he said that if I did not provide my drivers license that he would tell daughter in law not to come. Reluctantly I showed him my driver's license while maintaining possession, he then proceeded to call in a license check I withdrew my driver's license and he then recited its number to dispatch. During the course of all this I asked if I was being detained or was I free to go, I was free to go. He went back to his car but another officer (different uniform) was standing by my passenger window. I pulled forward about 10 yards as I did not feel like being stared at.

Deputy returned to my car and asked if I had forgotten anything, I answered "no", He asked again, I again told him "no". He said I failed to tell him I had an LTC as the law requires I do. I told him I didn't tell him as I wasn't carrying. He said that didn't matter, that I was supposed to identify my self as an LTC holder. FWIW he said I was being rude. I chose not to discuss the finer points of 411.20 with him.

If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the
license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by
the department and the license holder's handgun license. https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/government ... 1-205.html

Questions:
1) Does voluntarily identifying yourself to a LEO then require further display of the LTC if one is in possession of a handgun;
2) If a LEO demands identification but you are not in possession of a handgun, is there a legal requirement to display the LTC;
3) Same as #2, but you have a rifle or shotgun with you?
I have a couple of questions. I think you were between a rock and a future ex daughter in law.

1. Did you end up completing the transfer of stuff?
2. Do you think the future ex requested the police presence to make you uncomfortable or in some way to try and get you in trouble?

So far, it sounds to me like she's be a pain and attempting to be as difficult as she possibly can. I'm sorry for you and your son.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.
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Re: Duty to Provide LTC on Voluntary Identification to LEO?

#20

Post by striker55 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:21 am

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:56 pm
striker55 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:48 pm
Because I carry every time I go out of my house I volunteer my LTC whenever I'm asked for ID. Every time the officer says it's not needed.
As a practical matter, I do the same, and have the same result. That also covers me in case I happen to forget that I left my range bag in the back of my SUV, etc. Of course nowadays who can afford to actually use any ammo, lol.

The closest I have come to a judgement call was when I was rear ended shortly after getting my CHL. We pulled into an empty lot and the police were called. When the officer arrived, I was standing outside of my vehicle, and I had purposely left my gun in the center console, inside the car. The officer and I stepped away so she could get my statement, and she started by asking for my ID. I gave her both just to be safe, but I was probably not "carrying" since the gun was a good 20+ feet away inside of a locked car. It was a moot point since she just said she didn't need it and never even asked if I was armed.
I was rear ended at a traffic light, I got out of my car and told the girl to go into a parking lot to exchange info. She took off, I chased her for about a mile, she pulled into a gas station to hide behind some bushes. I pulled in behind her and blocked her from leaving, called 911. When deputy sheriff arrived I showed him my DL and CHL. He said that's fine and gave me the CHL back. She was driving on a suspended license and no insurance, because she was young and cute she was let go with some tickets, her boyfriend picked her up.

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Re: Duty to Provide LTC on Voluntary Identification to LEO?

#21

Post by oohrah » Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:19 am

striker55 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:48 pm
Because I carry every time I go out of my house I volunteer my LTC whenever I'm asked for ID. Every time the officer says it's not needed.
I've been told this as well by a city PD (when he was writing up an accident report for me). He said something like "it's not required anymore", and he may have been confused by the removal of penalty change.

Like others have suggested, I choose to be cooperative. You're never going to win an argument with a LEO on the side of the road.
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Re: Duty to Provide LTC on Voluntary Identification to LEO?

#22

Post by Scott B. » Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:14 pm

AF-Odin wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:19 am
Whereas I explain to my students the exact points of the law regarding when they are REQUIRED to display, I advise them that it a good idea anytime they have interaction with a law enforcement officer and are asked for identification to display BOTH their DL and LTC and state that they are or are not carrying. This is just for the type circumstance you described, because the fact that you have a LTC is going to pop up anytime they run the DL. If you have shown your LTC and stated that you are not carrying, there will not be a surprise and further questions when they see that. :tiphat:
Exactly. I hope this is the way most of us teach it.

The officer was incorrect on the requirement, but in this case the OP or anyone else was not winning any prizes for being right.
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Re: Duty to Provide LTC on Voluntary Identification to LEO?

#23

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:31 pm

striker55 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:21 am
Soccerdad1995 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:56 pm
striker55 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:48 pm
Because I carry every time I go out of my house I volunteer my LTC whenever I'm asked for ID. Every time the officer says it's not needed.
As a practical matter, I do the same, and have the same result. That also covers me in case I happen to forget that I left my range bag in the back of my SUV, etc. Of course nowadays who can afford to actually use any ammo, lol.

The closest I have come to a judgement call was when I was rear ended shortly after getting my CHL. We pulled into an empty lot and the police were called. When the officer arrived, I was standing outside of my vehicle, and I had purposely left my gun in the center console, inside the car. The officer and I stepped away so she could get my statement, and she started by asking for my ID. I gave her both just to be safe, but I was probably not "carrying" since the gun was a good 20+ feet away inside of a locked car. It was a moot point since she just said she didn't need it and never even asked if I was armed.
I was rear ended at a traffic light, I got out of my car and told the girl to go into a parking lot to exchange info. She took off, I chased her for about a mile, she pulled into a gas station to hide behind some bushes. I pulled in behind her and blocked her from leaving, called 911. When deputy sheriff arrived I showed him my DL and CHL. He said that's fine and gave me the CHL back. She was driving on a suspended license and no insurance, because she was young and cute she was let go with some tickets, her boyfriend picked her up.
It's a felony in some states to leave the scene of an accident if the other party is "injured". I have specific knowledge of Florida on this point (relative was involved). Net-net, if she only got tickets, she got VERY lucky.

I try to grill into my kids that the initial mistake isn't what matters in the end. It's what you do NEXT after that mistake that really matters.
Ding dong, the witch is dead


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Re: Duty to Provide LTC on Voluntary Identification to LEO?

#24

Post by K.Mooneyham » Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:22 pm

Oldgringo wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:15 pm
Given today's state of the country, BLM bull, and the vicious anarchist left-wing dipocrap attacks on the POPO, I think I would have smilingly shown him both and asked him how I could help him......even if he was acting an arrogant ass.

We either Back the Blue or we don't? They have enough problems/issues with the others without our law quoting petulant demand for their correctness.
Sir, that statement is far too simplistic. I am neither pro nor anti police. I see the police as requirement to have a large, complex, functional society. I would like them to be primarily dedicated to keeping the peace, however, focused on stopping those who breach the peace, especially those who breach the peace in violent fashion. I think the development of police into "law-enforcement officers", enforcing every tiny statute whether well-written and clear or not, is at the root of some of the issues today. I fully understand the "rule of law", but without some discretion, things can devolve rapidly. The gray area involving when you need to show your ID to the police is a great example. It should be blatantly obvious to the "reasonable person" the courts always talk about as to when someone must show ID to the police, but it's not, and this discussion is proof of that. Now, do I cooperate with the police if I am pulled over by them? Why yes, I certainly do. I cooperate for many reasons, such as being taught manners as a child, and also being polite to those who have positional authority which I learned in the USAF. I understand that the police deal with a lot of folks that most of us would consider "dirtbags", and that gives a lot of police a naturally suspicious outlook, and often negative outlook, as well. However, obviously not everyone is a criminal, nor doing criminal things, and they shouldn't be treated as such, either.

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Re: Duty to Provide LTC on Voluntary Identification to LEO?

#25

Post by airbornecpa » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:06 pm

Crud, more drama but it is all on the civil side. Another interaction with the same deputy last night, when I saw him I handed my DL and LTC to him without being asked. We both had a short chuckle. Drama from last night has subsided, still all on the civil side, son saw a lawyer today and is feeling a little better about his situation.

Stay well.


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Re: Duty to Provide LTC on Voluntary Identification to LEO?

#26

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:31 pm

airbornecpa wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:06 pm
Crud, more drama but it is all on the civil side. Another interaction with the same deputy last night, when I saw him I handed my DL and LTC to him without being asked. We both had a short chuckle. Drama from last night has subsided, still all on the civil side, son saw a lawyer today and is feeling a little better about his situation.

Stay well.
Having gone through the process myself, I can tell you that I'm really happy I moved from Washington state to Texas before we got a divorce. I had to give up ALOT, but I definitely made out much better than my 2 brothers who got divorced in Washington.
Ding dong, the witch is dead

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Re: Duty to Provide LTC on Voluntary Identification to LEO?

#27

Post by ScottDLS » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:18 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:27 pm
airbornecpa wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:15 pm
Something I have wondered about but never had happen to me until tonight, note I was NOT carrying:

I was acting as an intermediary on a return of property for my son's his future ex to return property and cash. She asked that I meet her at a neutral location for her to transfer said items to me. asked that I meet her at a neutral location with She moved the day before. I'd been waiting for a while when my truck was lit up by blue and red flashing lights. My initial thought was that someone had called me in for being "suspicious". That wasn't the case, she called the the Sheriff's office for a civil stand by. I thought okay, no big deal. Deputy asked me if I knew a "son's name" and who his wife was. I identified that I knew my son and provided daughter-in law's name. He asked for my driver's license, I declined as this was a "voluntary" interaction and I was free to go, but he said that if I did not provide my drivers license that he would tell daughter in law not to come. Reluctantly I showed him my driver's license while maintaining possession, he then proceeded to call in a license check I withdrew my driver's license and he then recited its number to dispatch. During the course of all this I asked if I was being detained or was I free to go, I was free to go. He went back to his car but another officer (different uniform) was standing by my passenger window. I pulled forward about 10 yards as I did not feel like being stared at.
I bolded the part of the OP that is relevant to the officers request for his identification. Given this fact pattern, where the officer asks for ID, the OP essentially says "do I have to give it to you" and the LEO responds with "no, but if you don't then I won't do XYZ", I don't know that this meets the common English language definition of a "demand". It sounds alot more like a "Request", or possibly a "conditional demand" where the LEO is telling you that you need to do something in order to have him do something else. Then again, IANAL.
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Re: Duty to Provide LTC on Voluntary Identification to LEO?

#28

Post by bagman45 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:24 pm

I've only been pulled over once in the many years I've had my CHL/LTC, for a tail light out. Handed the LEO license and LTC, he asked if I was carrying, told him I was. He said "good, if you can, you should". He handed me back my LTC, ran my license, then gave it back to me. Just told me to fix the light as soon as possible; no warning ticket, no nothing. Then we chatted about what we were carrying for a few minutes, he thanked me for my cooperation and we both went on our way.

I'll do the same any time I have interactions with a LEO, it's just easier and a common courtesy. Just my way of thinking......

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Re: Duty to Provide LTC on Voluntary Identification to LEO?

#29

Post by Oldgringo » Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:25 pm

K.Mooneyham wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:22 pm
Oldgringo wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:15 pm
Given today's state of the country, BLM bull, and the vicious anarchist left-wing dipocrap attacks on the POPO, I think I would have smilingly shown him both and asked him how I could help him......even if he was acting an arrogant ass.

We either Back the Blue or we don't? They have enough problems/issues with the others without our law quoting petulant demand for their correctness.
Sir, that statement is far too simplistic. I am neither pro nor anti police. I see the police as requirement to have a large, complex, functional society. I would like them to be primarily dedicated to keeping the peace, however, focused on stopping those who breach the peace, especially those who breach the peace in violent fashion. I think the development of police into "law-enforcement officers", enforcing every tiny statute whether well-written and clear or not, is at the root of some of the issues today. I fully understand the "rule of law", but without some discretion, things can devolve rapidly. The gray area involving when you need to show your ID to the police is a great example. It should be blatantly obvious to the "reasonable person" the courts always talk about as to when someone must show ID to the police, but it's not, and this discussion is proof of that. Now, do I cooperate with the police if I am pulled over by them? Why yes, I certainly do. I cooperate for many reasons, such as being taught manners as a child, and also being polite to those who have positional authority which I learned in the USAF. I understand that the police deal with a lot of folks that most of us would consider "dirtbags", and that gives a lot of police a naturally suspicious outlook, and often negative outlook, as well. However, obviously not everyone is a criminal, nor doing criminal things, and they shouldn't be treated as such, either.
Your point is?

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Re: Duty to Provide LTC on Voluntary Identification to LEO?

#30

Post by Oldgringo » Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:39 pm

bagman45 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:24 pm
I've only been pulled over once in the many years I've had my CHL/LTC, for a tail light out. Handed the LEO license and LTC, he asked if I was carrying, told him I was. He said "good, if you can, you should". He handed me back my LTC, ran my license, then gave it back to me. Just told me to fix the light as soon as possible; no warning ticket, no nothing. Then we chatted about what we were carrying for a few minutes, he thanked me for my cooperation and we both went on our way.

I'll do the same any time I have interactions with a LEO, it's just easier and a common courtesy. Just my way of thinking......
...and there, you have it. The police have a hard and dangerous enough job without lawyer wannabees debating whether to show their I.D's or not..

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