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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:27 pm
by WildBill
jmorris wrote:
WildBill wrote: As jimd1981 posted, it is referenced in the Texas Administrative Code Title 37:
(b) A student must score at least 70% on the written examination and shooting proficiency examination, in order to establish proficiency. A student will have three opportunities to pass the written examination and shooting proficiency examination.
https://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/r ... ch=6&rl=11
Thanks. It would have be nice if they pointed this out at the instructor class.
:tiphat:

Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:43 pm
by troglodyte
I was under the impression, and I don't know where I thought I read it or heard it, that if the student failed either test the third time that they had to retake the entire class. After reading the regs linked above it doesn't say what happens after they fail the third time except you report it.

Because of what I thought I have always told the student that if they fail a second time that I would highly discourage them from taking it a third time until they had sufficient instruction to pass, whether they did it with me or some other arrangement.

Now I'm curious as to what is required to get your LTC if you fail either test the third time. What is the procedure?

Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:52 pm
by WildBill
troglodyte wrote:I was under the impression, and I don't know where I thought I read it or heard it, that if the student failed either test the third time that they had to retake the entire class. After reading the regs linked above it doesn't say what happens after they fail the third time except you report it.

Because of what I thought I have always told the student that if they fail a second time that I would highly discourage them from taking it a third time until they had sufficient instruction to pass, whether they did it with me or some other arrangement.

Now I'm curious as to what is required to get your LTC if you fail either test the third time. What is the procedure?
I would think they would start out the same as they did the first time and take the class.

Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Posted: Mon May 09, 2016 4:30 pm
by OldCurlyWolf
I am in the process of helping one of my granddaughters get her LTC. The first thing I did was get her an instructor for safety and shooting. The Basics. After training from a .22 lr to a .45 ACP, she settled on the 40 S&W. Got her a Springfield XDS.

She is now proficient enough to pass the test both safety wise and accuracy wise. I also just bought her 500 rounds of practice ammunition. One of the next things we will do is go over handling misfires, hangfires, stovepipes, etc. And reiterating safety. I also plan on training her on my revolvers and my two Pistols. Both are different from what she has already shot. Broaden her range so to speak.

The fun begins
:evil2:

Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:32 pm
by thetexan
As per the DPS, 3 times.

I've had three fail. I tell students up front that they get three tries. I tell them that after that they will have to sign up for a complete new class to try again but that I personally will not even then allow them to do that unless they show me documentation of taking shooting instruction from me or some other qualified instructor in the interim.

So far everyone who failed the first round made it in round two.

Tex

Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:48 pm
by Scott B.
I'll mention at the start that if a student has a problem with either test, we'll work on it together, be it one-on-one tutoring or whatever it takes. I haven't had any fail, yet. A few have come much too close on shooting proficiency.

What I did for all my early classes was track questions that students were missing. It helped point out areas that I needed to strengthen in my presentation.

I've not been at it long, but I've enjoyed every class. Even the challenging ones (usually venue driven) have been great learning experiences.

Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:31 am
by twomillenium
Scott B. wrote:I'll mention at the start that if a student has a problem with either test, we'll work on it together, be it one-on-one tutoring or whatever it takes. I haven't had any fail, yet. A few have come much too close on shooting proficiency.

What I did for all my early classes was track questions that students were missing. It helped point out areas that I needed to strengthen in my presentation.

I've not been at it long, but I've enjoyed every class. Even the challenging ones (usually venue driven) have been great learning experiences.
I still check for most commonly missed questions. (I rarely have a student miss more than 3.) The only students that I have had fail the written test are those who had a literacy problem, I had one who just got really nervous about taking test. Funny thing was he shot 250. For those who don't pass the first proficiency test, I have been successful in talking them into further instruction (their choice of whom or where) before trying the second test. I have only had one who had to test 3 times. The second prof. test was a disqualification due to safety reasons and that was taken care of that day. ( somehow I do not think she will forget that safety class)

Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:09 am
by Beiruty
In case the student progress to success is hopeless, refund the class fee and say have a good day..

Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:52 am
by Charles L. Cotton
twomillenium wrote:
Scott B. wrote:I'll mention at the start that if a student has a problem with either test, we'll work on it together, be it one-on-one tutoring or whatever it takes. I haven't had any fail, yet. A few have come much too close on shooting proficiency.

What I did for all my early classes was track questions that students were missing. It helped point out areas that I needed to strengthen in my presentation.

I've not been at it long, but I've enjoyed every class. Even the challenging ones (usually venue driven) have been great learning experiences.
I still check for most commonly missed questions. (I rarely have a student miss more than 3.) The only students that I have had fail the written test are those who had a literacy problem, I had one who just got really nervous about taking test. Funny thing was he shot 250. For those who don't pass the first proficiency test, I have been successful in talking them into further instruction (their choice of whom or where) before trying the second test. I have only had one who had to test 3 times. The second prof. test was a disqualification due to safety reasons and that was taken care of that day. ( somehow I do not think she will forget that safety class)
I would really like to post the three most often missed questions so we instructors could discuss them, compare notes, and decide on ways to better present that material. Unfortunately, doing so would reveal the test questions. Oh well . . .

I'm not suggesting that most students miss certain questions. Of those that do miss a question or two, three seem to be the most common and I make sure I cover them clearly.

Chas.

Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:02 am
by Scott B.
Charles L. Cotton wrote:I would really like to post the three most often missed questions so we instructors could discuss them, compare notes, and decide on ways to better present that material. Unfortunately, doing so would reveal the test questions. Oh well . . .
Chas.
Perhaps consider a private forum for instructors? There's at least one private forum on the board already. Only issue would be vetting people allowed into the forum, and all that takes is time and a moderator checking credentials.

There's some questions I haven't asked because of google search bots.

Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:10 am
by Scott B.
twomillenium wrote:
Scott B. wrote:I'll mention at the start that if a student has a problem with either test, we'll work on it together, be it one-on-one tutoring or whatever it takes. I haven't had any fail, yet. A few have come much too close on shooting proficiency.

What I did for all my early classes was track questions that students were missing. It helped point out areas that I needed to strengthen in my presentation.

I've not been at it long, but I've enjoyed every class. Even the challenging ones (usually venue driven) have been great learning experiences.
I still check for most commonly missed questions. (I rarely have a student miss more than 3.) The only students that I have had fail the written test are those who had a literacy problem, I had one who just got really nervous about taking test. Funny thing was he shot 250. For those who don't pass the first proficiency test, I have been successful in talking them into further instruction (their choice of whom or where) before trying the second test. I have only had one who had to test 3 times. The second prof. test was a disqualification due to safety reasons and that was taken care of that day. ( somehow I do not think she will forget that safety class)
That's a good point about spot checks. I will also mention that if a student has issues with taking either test to talk to me during a break and I'll accommodate them.

What really helped me was auditing a couple of other instructors after I got certified. They were happy to let me and got some free help on the line. Got some great tips and some new approaches. Steal from the best is a pretty good mantra in teaching.

Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:56 am
by Texsquatch
BCGlocker wrote:
zimmerdesignz wrote:
RossA wrote:Never had a student fail the test. If they fail to pass such an easy test, they will really be dangerous with a gun.
I'm not an instructor but I agree. During my test, there were some real "special people". Lets just say know gun safety, don't look down the barrel at a jam. Don't buy a new gun you have never shot and are unfamiliar with and head off to the test.
One of my closest friend, a fellow LTC instructor, told me he started to wear his Kevlar vest with big red lettering "Instructor" on it when he teaches LTC Classes. He told me in two years of teaching, he had two loaded gun pointed at him already. As he stated: “Would it be ironic, after 30 years in the Army, retired as a lieutenant colonel, having kicking down doors, jump out of planes and helicopters and get killed at a LTC class I was teaching?" is it really that bad (I am a new LTC instructor getting ready to teach my first class)?
Sorry, I found this funny. Were the big red letters necessary? I think the Kevlar vest was good move, but would they need further clarification that he was an instructor and not to be shot at?

Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:55 pm
by Charles L. Cotton
Scott B. wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:I would really like to post the three most often missed questions so we instructors could discuss them, compare notes, and decide on ways to better present that material. Unfortunately, doing so would reveal the test questions. Oh well . . .
Chas.
Perhaps consider a private forum for instructors? There's at least one private forum on the board already. Only issue would be vetting people allowed into the forum, and all that takes is time and a moderator checking credentials.

There's some questions I haven't asked because of google search bots.
The only private forum is for the Moderators. A private LTC instructor forum would not be workable because there's no realistic way for me to verify that people granted access are LTC instructors.

Chas.

Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:23 pm
by twomillenium
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
twomillenium wrote:
Scott B. wrote:I'll mention at the start that if a student has a problem with either test, we'll work on it together, be it one-on-one tutoring or whatever it takes. I haven't had any fail, yet. A few have come much too close on shooting proficiency.

What I did for all my early classes was track questions that students were missing. It helped point out areas that I needed to strengthen in my presentation.

I've not been at it long, but I've enjoyed every class. Even the challenging ones (usually venue driven) have been great learning experiences.
I still check for most commonly missed questions. (I rarely have a student miss more than 3.) The only students that I have had fail the written test are those who had a literacy problem, I had one who just got really nervous about taking test. Funny thing was he shot 250. For those who don't pass the first proficiency test, I have been successful in talking them into further instruction (their choice of whom or where) before trying the second test. I have only had one who had to test 3 times. The second prof. test was a disqualification due to safety reasons and that was taken care of that day. ( somehow I do not think she will forget that safety class)
I would really like to post the three most often missed questions so we instructors could discuss them, compare notes, and decide on ways to better present that material. Unfortunately, doing so would reveal the test questions. Oh well . . .

I'm not suggesting that most students miss certain questions. Of those that do miss a question or two, three seem to be the most common and I make sure I cover them clearly.

Chas.
LOL, I bet I know which 3 your talking about. That is one reason to read the whole question and ALL the answers.

Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:45 pm
by superchief
I start out by asking how many people have never shot a handgun. Surprisingly, many people come in with no experience shooting. I don't try to stop them, but i go over my range safety briefing and then watch them like a hawk. I also have become very ready to pull them off the line if it's just not working. I can afford the slow down for the rest of the class. If they fail once, I tell them to go get some lessons and come back later. If the range i'm teaching at charges them extra, that's just the deal. If it's one of my private classes, i'll tune them up for free, but charge them for the retest; usually 15 plus the range fee.