How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

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Mike S
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

#46

Post by Mike S » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:15 pm

asbandr wrote:Sorry to revive an older thread, but I'm surprised to see so few student failures for other instructors. Maybe just a difference in volume of students? I work in a decently sized gun range in a large city and my classes range from 15-30 students once or twice a week. I have at least one failed shooting proficiency per class it seems.

----------------------------------------------

I do find that students often miss the same questions, and have done what I can to further explain those questions during the presentation. I think it boils down to students not reading the entire question and all answers carefully.
For me, it's a combination of low volume; extremely small class sizes (the norm for me is individual or couples, private lessons; occasionally small group instruction not to exceed 6 students); & actually conducting hands on dry fire instruction in the classroom prior to heading to the range.

Not much profit to be had in doing it this way, but I'm content with placing quality over quantity, & ensuring anyone who's CHL-100 has my name on it walks away more competent that when they showed up.

Regarding the written exam, I definitely agree. Most students that don't get a perfect score usually either didn't read the entire question/answers, or mis-read the question. Being very deliberate when covering those topics definitely helps.


twomillenium
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

#47

Post by twomillenium » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:34 pm

I do not post fail on any part of the CHL 8 unless they have failed 3 times in that section. Even if they shoot on a separate day, I send in a CHL 8 for that day. I will not give a partial CHL 100 to a student unless they request it (with need) and then I void out the section that they have not passed.

I have had several students shoot on a different day. I just send in a CHL 8 with only the shooting portion marked and I have not heard of any problems.
Texas LTC Instructor, NRA pistol instructor, RSO, NRA Endowment Life , TSRA, Glock enthusiast (tho I have others)
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montgomery
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

#48

Post by montgomery » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:31 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:00 pm
As jimd1981 noted, DPS allows students three attempts to qualify. I've only had four students not pass on the first attempt. Three passed on the second and the fourth passed on the third attempt. I don't charge them for multiple attempts. The three who passed on the second attempt simply shot with another relay. (Luckily, they initially shot with the first relay.) The lady who needed three tries shot with me after the class was over for everyone else.

Chas.
Pardon me asking on a dated thread - but for the life of me I cannot verify the time limit from first attempt to third attempt to pass written and / or shooting. Seems to me if a student passes written but fails shooting, they have one year to pass before the written portion is void. Is this correct? I had 2 students last week that passed the written portion but could not pass the shooting portion.


twomillenium
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

#49

Post by twomillenium » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:37 pm

montgomery wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:31 pm
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:00 pm
As jimd1981 noted, DPS allows students three attempts to qualify. I've only had four students not pass on the first attempt. Three passed on the second and the fourth passed on the third attempt. I don't charge them for multiple attempts. The three who passed on the second attempt simply shot with another relay. (Luckily, they initially shot with the first relay.) The lady who needed three tries shot with me after the class was over for everyone else.

Chas.
Pardon me asking on a dated thread - but for the life of me I cannot verify the time limit from first attempt to third attempt to pass written and / or shooting. Seems to me if a student passes written but fails shooting, they have one year to pass before the written portion is void. Is this correct? I had 2 students last week that passed the written portion but could not pass the shooting portion.
I had a situation where a student had broken their arm and took the classroom portion, knowing the shooting proficiency would be delayed by a few weeks. Things did not work out and the student was not able to shoot for almost 8 months due to surgery on arm. I did call DPS and was told the time starts on the classroom portion and technically they had up to two years to take the proficiency part before the classroom portion expired. Note: This was over 4 years ago, I have not read any changes to this procedure, except when the DPS changed the LTC !00 was only good for 1 year, but they changed back to 2 years in a short amount of time.
Texas LTC Instructor, NRA pistol instructor, RSO, NRA Endowment Life , TSRA, Glock enthusiast (tho I have others)
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing not to add it to a fruit salad.

You will never know another me, this could be good or not so good, but it is still true.


montgomery
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

#50

Post by montgomery » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:06 am

twomillenium wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:37 pm
montgomery wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:31 pm
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:00 pm
As jimd1981 noted, DPS allows students three attempts to qualify. I've only had four students not pass on the first attempt. Three passed on the second and the fourth passed on the third attempt. I don't charge them for multiple attempts. The three who passed on the second attempt simply shot with another relay. (Luckily, they initially shot with the first relay.) The lady who needed three tries shot with me after the class was over for everyone else.

Chas.
Pardon me asking on a dated thread - but for the life of me I cannot verify the time limit from first attempt to third attempt to pass written and / or shooting. Seems to me if a student passes written but fails shooting, they have one year to pass before the written portion is void. Is this correct? I had 2 students last week that passed the written portion but could not pass the shooting portion.
I had a situation where a student had broken their arm and took the classroom portion, knowing the shooting proficiency would be delayed by a few weeks. Things did not work out and the student was not able to shoot for almost 8 months due to surgery on arm. I did call DPS and was told the time starts on the classroom portion and technically they had up to two years to take the proficiency part before the classroom portion expired. Note: This was over 4 years ago, I have not read any changes to this procedure, except when the DPS changed the LTC !00 was only good for 1 year, but they changed back to 2 years in a short amount of time.
Thank you ... I cannot find a source to verify the one or two year limit ...


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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

#51

Post by Mike S » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:27 am

montgomery wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:06 am
twomillenium wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:37 pm
montgomery wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:31 pm
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:00 pm
As jimd1981 noted, DPS allows students three attempts to qualify. I've only had four students not pass on the first attempt. Three passed on the second and the fourth passed on the third attempt. I don't charge them for multiple attempts. The three who passed on the second attempt simply shot with another relay. (Luckily, they initially shot with the first relay.) The lady who needed three tries shot with me after the class was over for everyone else.

Chas.
Pardon me asking on a dated thread - but for the life of me I cannot verify the time limit from first attempt to third attempt to pass written and / or shooting. Seems to me if a student passes written but fails shooting, they have one year to pass before the written portion is void. Is this correct? I had 2 students last week that passed the written portion but could not pass the shooting portion.
I had a situation where a student had broken their arm and took the classroom portion, knowing the shooting proficiency would be delayed by a few weeks. Things did not work out and the student was not able to shoot for almost 8 months due to surgery on arm. I did call DPS and was told the time starts on the classroom portion and technically they had up to two years to take the proficiency part before the classroom portion expired. Note: This was over 4 years ago, I have not read any changes to this procedure, except when the DPS changed the LTC !00 was only good for 1 year, but they changed back to 2 years in a short amount of time.
Thank you ... I cannot find a source to verify the one or two year limit ...
Here is the link to the Admin Rules:

https://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/r ... ch=6&rl=14

Subsection (c) says the student has 3 opportunities to pass both the written & proficiency exams, within a 12- month period.

Subsection (d) says the instructor must submit ALL failures. If it is the third (hence final failure, that must also be annotated).

Subsection (f) says the LTC-100 is only valid for 1 year. (The published rule contradicts what some have said the RSD has told them (and I don't discount that they were told that), but until the change is posted I will go with what is on the official website).

Excerpt below:
c) A handgun license applicant will have three opportunities to pass the written examination and the proficiency examination within a 12 month period.

(d) The qualified handgun instructor or approved online course provider must submit all examination failures to the department on the class completion notification. The notification must indicate if the failure occurred after the handgun license applicant had been given three opportunities to pass the examinations.

(f) All certificates of training (LTC-100 or LTC-101) are valid for one year from the date of issuance. Any certificate of training that is required in conjunction with an application must be valid on the date the completed application is submitted to the department.


montgomery
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

#52

Post by montgomery » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:43 am

Mike S wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:27 am
montgomery wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:06 am
twomillenium wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:37 pm
montgomery wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:31 pm
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:00 pm
As jimd1981 noted, DPS allows students three attempts to qualify. I've only had four students not pass on the first attempt. Three passed on the second and the fourth passed on the third attempt. I don't charge them for multiple attempts. The three who passed on the second attempt simply shot with another relay. (Luckily, they initially shot with the first relay.) The lady who needed three tries shot with me after the class was over for everyone else.

Chas.
Pardon me asking on a dated thread - but for the life of me I cannot verify the time limit from first attempt to third attempt to pass written and / or shooting. Seems to me if a student passes written but fails shooting, they have one year to pass before the written portion is void. Is this correct? I had 2 students last week that passed the written portion but could not pass the shooting portion.
I had a situation where a student had broken their arm and took the classroom portion, knowing the shooting proficiency would be delayed by a few weeks. Things did not work out and the student was not able to shoot for almost 8 months due to surgery on arm. I did call DPS and was told the time starts on the classroom portion and technically they had up to two years to take the proficiency part before the classroom portion expired. Note: This was over 4 years ago, I have not read any changes to this procedure, except when the DPS changed the LTC !00 was only good for 1 year, but they changed back to 2 years in a short amount of time.
Thank you ... I cannot find a source to verify the one or two year limit ...
Here is the link to the Admin Rules:

https://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/r ... ch=6&rl=14

Subsection (c) says the student has 3 opportunities to pass both the written & proficiency exams, within a 12- month period.

Subsection (d) says the instructor must submit ALL failures. If it is the third (hence final failure, that must also be annotated).

Subsection (f) says the LTC-100 is only valid for 1 year. (The published rule contradicts what some have said the RSD has told them (and I don't discount that they were told that), but until the change is posted I will go with what is on the official website).

Excerpt below:
c) A handgun license applicant will have three opportunities to pass the written examination and the proficiency examination within a 12 month period.

(d) The qualified handgun instructor or approved online course provider must submit all examination failures to the department on the class completion notification. The notification must indicate if the failure occurred after the handgun license applicant had been given three opportunities to pass the examinations.

(f) All certificates of training (LTC-100 or LTC-101) are valid for one year from the date of issuance. Any certificate of training that is required in conjunction with an application must be valid on the date the completed application is submitted to the department.
Thank you my brother ... very much appreciate your effort, insight, and the source!!


Mike S
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

#53

Post by Mike S » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:51 am

montgomery wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:43 am
Mike S wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:27 am
montgomery wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:06 am
twomillenium wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:37 pm
montgomery wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:31 pm
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:00 pm
As jimd1981 noted, DPS allows students three attempts to qualify. I've only had four students not pass on the first attempt. Three passed on the second and the fourth passed on the third attempt. I don't charge them for multiple attempts. The three who passed on the second attempt simply shot with another relay. (Luckily, they initially shot with the first relay.) The lady who needed three tries shot with me after the class was over for everyone else.

Chas.
Pardon me asking on a dated thread - but for the life of me I cannot verify the time limit from first attempt to third attempt to pass written and / or shooting. Seems to me if a student passes written but fails shooting, they have one year to pass before the written portion is void. Is this correct? I had 2 students last week that passed the written portion but could not pass the shooting portion.
I had a situation where a student had broken their arm and took the classroom portion, knowing the shooting proficiency would be delayed by a few weeks. Things did not work out and the student was not able to shoot for almost 8 months due to surgery on arm. I did call DPS and was told the time starts on the classroom portion and technically they had up to two years to take the proficiency part before the classroom portion expired. Note: This was over 4 years ago, I have not read any changes to this procedure, except when the DPS changed the LTC !00 was only good for 1 year, but they changed back to 2 years in a short amount of time.
Thank you ... I cannot find a source to verify the one or two year limit ...
Here is the link to the Admin Rules:

https://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/r ... ch=6&rl=14

Subsection (c) says the student has 3 opportunities to pass both the written & proficiency exams, within a 12- month period.

Subsection (d) says the instructor must submit ALL failures. If it is the third (hence final failure, that must also be annotated).

Subsection (f) says the LTC-100 is only valid for 1 year. (The published rule contradicts what some have said the RSD has told them (and I don't discount that they were told that), but until the change is posted I will go with what is on the official website).

Excerpt below:
c) A handgun license applicant will have three opportunities to pass the written examination and the proficiency examination within a 12 month period.

(d) The qualified handgun instructor or approved online course provider must submit all examination failures to the department on the class completion notification. The notification must indicate if the failure occurred after the handgun license applicant had been given three opportunities to pass the examinations.

(f) All certificates of training (LTC-100 or LTC-101) are valid for one year from the date of issuance. Any certificate of training that is required in conjunction with an application must be valid on the date the completed application is submitted to the department.
Thank you my brother ... very much appreciate your effort, insight, and the source!!
:tiphat:
No worries!

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rob777
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

#54

Post by rob777 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:05 pm

Mike S wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:27 am
montgomery wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:06 am
twomillenium wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:37 pm
montgomery wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:31 pm
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:00 pm
As jimd1981 noted, DPS allows students three attempts to qualify. I've only had four students not pass on the first attempt. Three passed on the second and the fourth passed on the third attempt. I don't charge them for multiple attempts. The three who passed on the second attempt simply shot with another relay. (Luckily, they initially shot with the first relay.) The lady who needed three tries shot with me after the class was over for everyone else.

Chas.
Pardon me asking on a dated thread - but for the life of me I cannot verify the time limit from first attempt to third attempt to pass written and / or shooting. Seems to me if a student passes written but fails shooting, they have one year to pass before the written portion is void. Is this correct? I had 2 students last week that passed the written portion but could not pass the shooting portion.
I had a situation where a student had broken their arm and took the classroom portion, knowing the shooting proficiency would be delayed by a few weeks. Things did not work out and the student was not able to shoot for almost 8 months due to surgery on arm. I did call DPS and was told the time starts on the classroom portion and technically they had up to two years to take the proficiency part before the classroom portion expired. Note: This was over 4 years ago, I have not read any changes to this procedure, except when the DPS changed the LTC !00 was only good for 1 year, but they changed back to 2 years in a short amount of time.
Thank you ... I cannot find a source to verify the one or two year limit ...
Here is the link to the Admin Rules:

https://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/r ... ch=6&rl=14

Subsection (c) says the student has 3 opportunities to pass both the written & proficiency exams, within a 12- month period.

Subsection (d) says the instructor must submit ALL failures. If it is the third (hence final failure, that must also be annotated).

Subsection (f) says the LTC-100 is only valid for 1 year. (The published rule contradicts what some have said the RSD has told them (and I don't discount that they were told that), but until the change is posted I will go with what is on the official website).

Excerpt below:
c) A handgun license applicant will have three opportunities to pass the written examination and the proficiency examination within a 12 month period.

(d) The qualified handgun instructor or approved online course provider must submit all examination failures to the department on the class completion notification. The notification must indicate if the failure occurred after the handgun license applicant had been given three opportunities to pass the examinations.

(f) All certificates of training (LTC-100 or LTC-101) are valid for one year from the date of issuance. Any certificate of training that is required in conjunction with an application must be valid on the date the completed application is submitted to the department.

Just confirming we'd submit a separate LTC-8 for each attempt, pass or fail?
I haven't had it come up yet but I know of some local ranges that offer the shooting qualification only. How would you know if this is their 1st, 2nd or 3rd attempt (other than just asking I suppose)? Or do you just focus on their time with you and let DPS (hopefully) catch it on their end?
"Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”


Mike S
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

#55

Post by Mike S » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:14 am

rob777 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:05 pm
Mike S wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:27 am
montgomery wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:06 am
twomillenium wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:37 pm
montgomery wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:31 pm
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:00 pm
As jimd1981 noted, DPS allows students three attempts to qualify. I've only had four students not pass on the first attempt. Three passed on the second and the fourth passed on the third attempt. I don't charge them for multiple attempts. The three who passed on the second attempt simply shot with another relay. (Luckily, they initially shot with the first relay.) The lady who needed three tries shot with me after the class was over for everyone else.

Chas.
Pardon me asking on a dated thread - but for the life of me I cannot verify the time limit from first attempt to third attempt to pass written and / or shooting. Seems to me if a student passes written but fails shooting, they have one year to pass before the written portion is void. Is this correct? I had 2 students last week that passed the written portion but could not pass the shooting portion.
I had a situation where a student had broken their arm and took the classroom portion, knowing the shooting proficiency would be delayed by a few weeks. Things did not work out and the student was not able to shoot for almost 8 months due to surgery on arm. I did call DPS and was told the time starts on the classroom portion and technically they had up to two years to take the proficiency part before the classroom portion expired. Note: This was over 4 years ago, I have not read any changes to this procedure, except when the DPS changed the LTC !00 was only good for 1 year, but they changed back to 2 years in a short amount of time.
Thank you ... I cannot find a source to verify the one or two year limit ...
Here is the link to the Admin Rules:

https://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/r ... ch=6&rl=14

Subsection (c) says the student has 3 opportunities to pass both the written & proficiency exams, within a 12- month period.

Subsection (d) says the instructor must submit ALL failures. If it is the third (hence final failure, that must also be annotated).

Subsection (f) says the LTC-100 is only valid for 1 year. (The published rule contradicts what some have said the RSD has told them (and I don't discount that they were told that), but until the change is posted I will go with what is on the official website).

Excerpt below:
c) A handgun license applicant will have three opportunities to pass the written examination and the proficiency examination within a 12 month period.

(d) The qualified handgun instructor or approved online course provider must submit all examination failures to the department on the class completion notification. The notification must indicate if the failure occurred after the handgun license applicant had been given three opportunities to pass the examinations.

(f) All certificates of training (LTC-100 or LTC-101) are valid for one year from the date of issuance. Any certificate of training that is required in conjunction with an application must be valid on the date the completed application is submitted to the department.

Just confirming we'd submit a separate LTC-8 for each attempt, pass or fail?
I haven't had it come up yet but I know of some local ranges that offer the shooting qualification only. How would you know if this is their 1st, 2nd or 3rd attempt (other than just asking I suppose)? Or do you just focus on their time with you and let DPS (hopefully) catch it on their end?
Rob,
I've only had one student fail the proficiency test, & for that one I submitted the LTC-8 showing 'Pass' in the Classroom column, and 'Fail' in the Proficiency column. That particular student didn't desire to re-attempt on the same day, & never took my offer to schedule for another day.

The Admin Code doesn't specify if a separate LTC-8 is required for each 'attempt', only that failures must be reported on the LTC-8. So, using the above student as an example, if they had retested on the same day & failed again (or passed for that matter), I would think just adding a separate entry would suffice (ie,

Line 1: Doe, John. Passed Classroom. Failed Proficiency
Line 2: Doe, John. Failed Proficiency
Line 3: Doe, John. Failed Proficiency (Third attempt)

Or, if you submitted a separate LTC-8 for each, I don't think that would technically be incorrect. If the attempts were on different dates, then of course each would need to be reported on their own LTC-8's

I'll let Infoman chime in on how the DPS actually sorts thru it on their end, but my assumption is that they track by LTC-8's how many attempts an applicant has made.

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Scott B.
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

#56

Post by Scott B. » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:40 am

You would think they would cover all the administrative code stuff in the LTC instructor's course. Never understood why they don't.
LTC / SSC Instructor. NRA - Instructor, CRSO, Life Member.
Sig pistol/rifle & Glock armorer | FFL 07/02 SOT

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03Lightningrocks
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

#57

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:46 am

As a side note. I find it disturbing that a person could fail this "very easy to manage" proficiency test three times. Lord help us if that person manages to get lucky and pass one. The thought of someone like this pulling out their weapon in self defense is scary.

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