AR 15 pistol

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skeathley
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AR 15 pistol

#1

Post by skeathley » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:37 pm

RE: Ruger AR 15 pistol.

I have never shot one of these. Does this qualify as a pistol for the purpose of an LTC? The owner says it shoots .300 Blackout. That sounds like an SBR to me.
If it was a rifle before it was a pistol, it may be illegal to carry in any location that sells alcohol.

Thoughts?

:rules:
Texas LTC Instructor / RSO / SSC
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jason812
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Re: AR 15 pistol

#2

Post by jason812 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:42 pm

Legal in regards to LTC. Several members here including myself have built ar pistols in various calibers and take them for walks in different types of bags or packs.

If it was a rifle first and is not registered as an sbr and is now a pistol. It's illegal period.


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skeathley
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Re: AR 15 pistol

#3

Post by skeathley » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:58 pm

Would that be legal for open carry? LEOs might give a long look at someone carrying one of these.

:confused5
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jason812
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Re: AR 15 pistol

#4

Post by jason812 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:16 pm

As long as it's in a belt or shoulder holster, yes it's legal. Although most people don't pay much attention to an open carrier, an open carrier with a ar pistol might get noticed.

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anygunanywhere
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Re: AR 15 pistol

#5

Post by anygunanywhere » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:20 pm

Holsters might be a problem.
1911s should be carried openly as God and John Moses Browning (PBUH) intended them to be.
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MadMonkey
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Re: AR 15 pistol

#6

Post by MadMonkey » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:29 am

anygunanywhere wrote:Holsters might be a problem.
Pfft.

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MaduroBU
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Re: AR 15 pistol

#7

Post by MaduroBU » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:55 am

The suppressor and sbr portions of the NFA baffle me, though an AR15 pistol does seem a bit....unwieldy.

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MadMonkey
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Re: AR 15 pistol

#8

Post by MadMonkey » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:48 am

BTW, a rifle can't legally be changed to a pistol configuration. Once a rifle, always a rifle (SBR is an option though).

EDIT: The above meaning an original rifle; a pistol converted to a rifle can return to a pistol configuration (because our laws make sense :???: ).

What do you mean by unwieldy? I have several AR pistols and they handle like my rifles. If anything they're easier to maneuver.
Last edited by MadMonkey on Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Scott B.
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Re: AR 15 pistol

#9

Post by Scott B. » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:32 am

It's unwieldy when operating it as a pistol. :mrgreen:

I have yet to have a student bring one for their LTC test, but I figure it's bound to happen some day.
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troglodyte
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Re: AR 15 pistol

#10

Post by troglodyte » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:02 pm

I have two 300 BOs. 26.5" long and fit in a Hazard 4 Takedown bag perfectly. I won't be open carrying it but I can throw the bag over my shoulder and go just about anywhere.

I don't follow the question about "where alcohol is served".

You can't make a rifle into a pistol but you can make a pistol into a rifle and back again if you want.

The whole SBR/rifle/pistol/other thing can get real confusing but there are a few of basic questions:
(Obligatory "I am not a lawyer" statement)

Does it have a stock (or can accept a stock)? No = pistol, Yes = Rifle. Note: Arm braces are not stocks even though they may look similar.

If it is a rifle does it have a barrel less than 16"? No = Rifle, Yes = SBR = requires tax stamp

If it is a pistol have vertical fore grip? No = still a pistol, Yes = Now an Any Other Weapon = tax stamp

There's a lot of other little, but important, nuances but these are the basic ones that apply to probably most people.

This is the way I understand it. Others more knowledgeable will chime in if I missed something.


One last question, why is this posted in the Instructor's corner?
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Scott B.
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Re: AR 15 pistol

#11

Post by Scott B. » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:41 pm

skeathley wrote:RE: Ruger AR 15 pistol.

I have never shot one of these. Does this qualify as a pistol for the purpose of an LTC? The owner says it shoots .300 Blackout. That sounds like an SBR to me.
If it was a rifle before it was a pistol, it may be illegal to carry in any location that sells alcohol.

Thoughts?

:rules:
To answer directly. Yes, it qualifies as a pistol for purposes of the LTC test. But, to my interpretation they have to operate it as a pistol for the test not as a rifle. Use the brace as designed.

If it was a rifle before being converted to pistol, without a Form 1 application and approval w/ tax stamp returned, that as an illegal conversion. You however, are not the ATF.

The alcohol selling thing is just confusing. Can't carry in a 51% business, period. No on premises consumption, sale of alcohol it's like any other biz. If it's not posted or prohibited, carry. Sales of alcohol less than 51% on-premises consumption, not posted 51%, carry.
LTC / SSO Instructor. NRA - Instructor, RSO, Life Member.
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MadMonkey
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Re: AR 15 pistol

#12

Post by MadMonkey » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:08 am

troglodyte wrote:Does it have a stock (or can accept a stock)? No = pistol, Yes = Rifle.
A virgin lower that hasn't been configured as a rifle can have anything you want on it, so if you purchase a new complete lower with a stock on it, you can pull the stock off and install a brace, saddle or whatever non-stock you want and configure it as a pistol (what your FFL marks it down as doesn't matter AFAIK, but a new lower should be "other" and not pistol or rifle).

Being able to accept a stock isn't a problem as most pistol buffer tubes can accept some form of aftermarket stock. The concern is that the ATF could decide that you had "constructive intent" if you had a bare carbine buffer tube and a stock laying by it. It's bull, but can happen... but unlikely except as an add-on charge to something else.

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If it is a pistol have vertical fore grip? No = still a pistol, Yes = Now an Any Other Weapon = tax stamp
A pistol with an OAL over 26" can have a VFG legally, as it's considered just a firearm and not a handgun.

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Topic author
skeathley
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Re: AR 15 pistol

#13

Post by skeathley » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:15 am

This is getting way into the weeds. I'm not talking about a home-built Frankengun, but a commercially built (by Ruger) AR pistol, and its legal acceptability for the LTC Proficiency.

The comment about alcohol service is because, if this thing is legally a rifle, he could not use it for the LTC, but if he did, then he could be arrested for carrying it into any business that sells alcohol (51% or not), as those locations are off-limits to long guns, and he would also likely be charged with unlawful carry, as his LTC would be invalid (Proficiency was invalid). I didn't want to open myself up to a lawsuit because I allowed him to take the class under false pretenses.

However, the concensus seems to be that this commercially built AR pistol is, indeed a pistol.

Thanks to everyone.

:cheers2:
Texas LTC Instructor / RSO / SSC
Viet Nam Veteran: 25th Infantry, Cu Chi
https://mckinneyfirearmstraining.com

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