Conviction of man for owning a faulty gun

[txmatt]

This is why I stick to bolt- and lever-action rifles - not bloody likely that they could become 'machineguns'... that's just me, though

Well, sadly it seems like that is what the ATF is going for here... to make all owners of legal semiautomatics afraid that they are one malfunction away from felony charges. If this is how they are operating under the Bush administration I really don't look forward to the next four years regardless of who wins in November. I really don't think giving up on semiautos is the correct response to this problem, though, rather a legislative fix making clear the definition of a machine gun and standarizing testing proceedures (any providing for accountabilty to demonstrate that those proccedures are followed) is needed.

[Mike1951]

A few thoughts here:

I once had a "gun show" trigger job done on my 10-22. When I went to the range afterwards, it would fire bursts. The angry looks from the other shooters caused me to end my outing early. I got the dealer to replace the trigger group with an unmodified one and I then proceeded to learn myself how to work on 10-22 actions.

I don't know what it takes to convert an AR to full auto. But I do regularly see 'drop in auto sears' for AR's on the market for about $125.

I recall a situation from the '70's or '80's when ATF considered designating lever guns as machine guns because a device had been added that captured the muzzle blast to work the lever, causing the gun to fire continuously until empty. This was under the 'or can be made to fire more than' definition.

[Seburiel]

Why?

Why should you be afraid of a group who is supposed to be an investigation entity, NOT a prosecution entity..and who have NO documented method on their investigation tactics...and who often than not purposefully try to make something behave the way its not just to get a conviction

Last time I checked it was innocent until proven guilty..not guilty until we can figure out how to make this "normal rifle" fire like a machine gun

Because it's quite obvious that the gub'ment doesn't play by the rules a lot of the time. and as for innocent until proven guilty, mayhaps once been true, but given the way things seem to go lately, you'll be declared innocent or guilty in the press before you ever actually go to trial (mostly guilty, it seems).

[alibatesknapper]

I've had my black powder revolver jump fire and all six went off. I guess according to the ATF and Judge Clevert that is a machine gun too. I'll go turn myself in............. or not.

[WarHawk-AVG]

I've had my black powder revolver jump fire and all six went off. I guess according to the ATF and Judge Clevert that is a machine gun too. I'll go turn myself in............. or not.

Well that would be requiring you still had the majority of your hand left

[Liko81]

I don't know what it takes to convert an AR to full auto. But I do regularly see 'drop in auto sears' for AR's on the market for about $125.

The 4-part trigger group, including the fire selector, plus the auto sear, makes an AR an M16. Basically the AR trigger group gives you only the off and semi positions on the fire selector, and all four of those parts must be replaced to change the fire selector and have it actually work. Then, you add the sear which responds to the full-auto setting (the non-auto sear is slightly different, is "safed" when using an M-16 fire selector set to "auto", and cannot be modified to work full-auto as required by the BATF), and your gun's controls are now virtually identical to an M-16.

U.S. law is weird. In order for possession of an M-16 auto sear to be illegal, you must also have all the other parts that make up the firing action of a full-auto AR. If you don't own an AR, an auto sear is perfectly legal to own. You get into trouble when you are in possession of a non-NFA AR AND the parts to make it full-auto.

[melkor41]

I don't know what it takes to convert an AR to full auto. But I do regularly see 'drop in auto sears' for AR's on the market for about $125.

The 4-part trigger group, including the fire selector, plus the auto sear, makes an AR an M16. Basically the AR trigger group gives you only the off and semi positions on the fire selector, and all four of those parts must be replaced to change the fire selector and have it actually work. Then, you add the sear which responds to the full-auto setting (the non-auto sear is slightly different, is "safed" when using an M-16 fire selector set to "auto", and cannot be modified to work full-auto as required by the BATF), and your gun's controls are now virtually identical to an M-16.

U.S. law is weird. In order for possession of an M-16 auto sear to be illegal, you must also have all the other parts that make up the firing action of a full-auto AR. If you don't own an AR, an auto sear is perfectly legal to own. You get into trouble when you are in possession of a non-NFA AR AND the parts to make it full-auto.

And IIRC you not only have to replace all those parts, you have to mill out the rear shelf in the reciver to except the sear, plus drill a hole for the sear pin. some lowers have the area where the sear pin go filled in with metal you you would have to mill that out too.

Its not something you can do accidently. The owner of the gun was breaking the law and if we cry foul at everything that happens against gun owners and try to spin this story we end up looking like fools.

[Liko81]

And IIRC you not only have to replace all those parts, you have to mill out the rear shelf in the reciver to except the sear, plus drill a hole for the sear pin. some lowers have the area where the sear pin go filled in with metal you you would have to mill that out too.

Its not something you can do accidently. The owner of the gun was breaking the law and if we cry foul at everything that happens against gun owners and try to spin this story we end up looking like fools.

WRONG. the gun did NOT have an auto sear and was NOT milled to accept one. The gun was never intended to fire full auto; they got it to do so by testing using a type of ammunition that Olympic Arms, which made the thing (and built it with the M-16 trigger troup), KNEW would cause "burps" and advised its owners AGAINST doing.

The guy involved is a member of the OCDO forum that I also lurk on; I've seen practically everything about this case, and gun owners SHOULD be crying foul, because this decision upholds an interpretation of the definition of a "machine gun" that makes EVERY semi-automatic handgun and rifle on the market suspect, because ANY semi-automatic design can theoretically malfunction the same way due to age, wear, improper modification and ammo type, and the BATF contended here, successfully, that it doesn't matter; IF YOUR GUN CAN BE MADE TO FIRE MORE THAN ONE ROUND PER TRIGGER PULL, YOU ARE A FELON. It doesn't have to be designed to do so. It doesn't have to do so reliably. It doesn't have to sustain automatic fire. It just has to fire more than one round when the trigger is pulled when the ATF tests it, and they basically have carte blanche to try as many things as they want in order to get it to fire.

[Liberty]

And IIRC you not only have to replace all those parts, you have to mill out the rear shelf in the reciver to except the sear, plus drill a hole for the sear pin. some lowers have the area where the sear pin go filled in with metal you you would have to mill that out too.

Its not something you can do accidently. The owner of the gun was breaking the law and if we cry foul at everything that happens against gun owners and try to spin this story we end up looking like fools.

I don't know, as far as I know the accused isn't a liar that ignores our constitution and is well well known for being an abusive bunch of thugs.
Somehow, I tend to believe the accused who was only exercising his constitutional rights and never known to be abusive, rather than a a group of jackboots who are dedicated to disarming Americans at any costs. The Klintons and Renos are returning and these abuses will just become more commonplace.

[Glock 23]

this case sickens me

[melkor41]

I am having a hard time then following the whole "The selector had a 3rd position, he (the owner, not the ATF) told me it was a 3rnd burst, but it doesnt work very well" and the "I decided to try the 3rnd burst and it worked for a few times then jammed, i cleared the jam and it fired a few times then jammed again" If this was all a ploy by the ATF to get a gun to slam fire with soft primers.

Perhaps you can explain it to me other than "soft primers" What do soft primers have to do with the gun having a 3rnd group selection?

You are trying to pull the focus away from the facts of the incident by crying "THE EVIL ATF!!! THEY ARE BREAKING TEH LAWS!!!!1!!1!1!1Eleventy" what the ATF does in and outside the law is not the issue here.

Did the gun have a 3rnd selection on the fire selector? If it did not, why did he tell the guy that 1) it did and 2) not to use it cause it didnt work very well.

[melkor41]

I am having a hard time then following the whole "The selector had a 3rd position, he (the owner, not the ATF) told me it was a 3rnd burst, but it doesnt work very well" and the "I decided to try the 3rnd burst and it worked for a few times then jammed, i cleared the jam and it fired a few times then jammed again" If this was all a ploy by the ATF to get a gun to slam fire with soft primers.

Perhaps you can explain it to me other than "soft primers" What do soft primers have to do with the gun having a 3rnd group selection?

You are trying to pull the focus away from the facts of the incident by crying "THE EVIL ATF!!! THEY ARE BREAKING TEH LAWS!!!!1!!1!1!1Eleventy" what the ATF does in and outside the law is not the issue here.

Did the gun have a 3rnd selection on the fire selector? If it did not, why did he tell the guy that 1) it did and 2) not to use it cause it didnt work very well.

And if the ATF really wanted anyone that bad why go through all that.... just fire the gun till its hot enough to cook off a mag and call that full auto fire.

[rm9792]

Well, sadly it seems like that is what the ATF is going for here... to make all owners of legal semiautomatics afraid that they are one malfunction away from felony charges. If this is how they are operating under the Bush administration I really don't look forward to the next four years regardless of who wins in November. I really don't think giving up on semiautos is the correct response to this problem, though, rather a legislative fix making clear the definition of a machine gun and standarizing testing proceedures (any providing for accountabilty to demonstrate that those proccedures are followed) is needed.

This would require:
1. An actual malfunction to occur
2. Be at a public place with others around.
3. Someone from the ATF at the range to hear it and investigate. At a range the size of PSC it would be difficult unless he was on the same line.
4. That ATF agent to be completely unreasonable if it was truly a malfunction. If you notice it does autofire and keep doing it then woe to you. I doubt one burp is gonna get you in the pokey.
This guy was repeatedly autofiring wasnt he?

[KBCraig]

He was sentenced to 30 months.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=65455

30 months in jail for broken gun
Judge hands down penalty for misfire from 20-year-old rifle
Posted: May 27, 2008
9:32 pm Eastern

© 2008 WorldNetDaily

A federal judge has ordered a 30-month prison sentence for a man whose rifle misfired, letting loose three shots at a firing range, prompting 2nd Amendment supporters to warn their constituents how easily they, too, can become a "gun felon."

"It didn't matter the rifle in question had not been intentionally modified for select fire, or that it did not have an M16 bolt carrier or sear, that it did not show any signs of machining or drilling, or that that model had even been recalled a few years back," said a commentary in Guns Magazine on the case against David R. Olofson, of Berlin, Wis.

"It didn't matter the government had repeatedly failed to replicate automatic fire until they replaced the ammunition with a softer primer type. It didn't even matter that the prosecution admitted it was not important to prove the gun would do it again if the test were conducted today," the magazine said. "What mattered was the government's position that none of the above was relevant because '[T]here's no indication it makes any difference under the statute. If you pull the trigger once and it fires more than one round, no matter what the cause it's a machine gun.'

"No matter what the cause.

"Think about if your semiauto ever malfunctions. Because that's how close you could be to becoming a convicted 'gun felon,'" the commentary said.

WND reported earlier when Olofson, a drill instructor in the National Guard, was convicted in a federal court for illegally transferring a machine gun.

The verdict came in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Wisconsin.

An expert witness told WND the conviction means anyone whose weapon malfunctions is subject to charges of having or handling a banned gun.

"If your semiautomatic rifle breaks or malfunctions you are now subject to prosecution. That is now a sad FACT," wrote Len Savage, a weaponry expert who runs Historic Arms LLC.

"To those in the sporting culture who have derided 'black guns' and so-called 'assault weapons'; Your double barreled shotgun is now next up to be seized and you could possibly be prosecuted if the ATF can get it to 'fire more than once,'" he wrote in a blog run by Red's Trading Post.

"Hey, but don't worry," Savage said. "The people testing it have no procedures in writing and the testing will be in secret."

He said during an interview with Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership that Olofson had been instructing a man in the use of guns, and the student asked to borrow a rifle for some shooting practice.

"Mr. Olofson was nice enough to accommodate him," Savage said. So the student, Robert Kiernicki, went to a range and fired about 120 rounds. "He went to put in another magazine and the rifle shot three times, then jammed."

The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel said Olofson, 36, is free until he gets a letter notifying of his date to report for confinement, and his lawyer, Brian Fahl, promised an immediate appeal with the help of the National Rifle Association.

He said the rifle, which was subject to a manufacturer's recall because of mechanical problems at one point, malfunctioned because of the way it was made.

But he also warned of the potential problems from broken guns.

"If you have a multiple firing, it looks like you can be prosecuted," he told the newspaper.

The judge, Charles Clevert, said he believed Olofson knew about the gun, or should have.

"This was a man who has considerable knowledge of weapons, considerable knowledge of machine guns," Clevert said, according to the Journal-Sentinel. "Mr. Olofson, in this court's view, has shown he was ignoring the law."

Prosecutors said Olofson loaned the Olympic Arms gun to Kiernicki, whose burst of three shots prompted federal investigators to confiscate the gun for testing.

Savage said once the government got the gun, things got worse.

"They examined and test fired the rifle; then declared it to be 'just a rifle,'" Savage said. "You would think it would all be resolved at this point, this was merely the beginning."

He said the Special Agent in Charge, Jody Keeku, asked for a re-test and specified that the tests use "soft primered commercial ammunition."

"FTB has no standardized testing procedures, in fact it has no written procedures at all for testing firearms," Savage said. "They had no standard to stick to, and gleefully tried again. The results this time...'a machinegun.' ATF with a self-admitted 50 percent error rate pursued an indictment and Mr. Olofson was charged with 'Unlawful transfer of a machinegun.'. Not possession, not even Robert Kiernicki was charged with possession (who actually possessed the rifle), though the ATF paid Mr. Kiernicki 'an undisclosed amount of money' to testify against Mr. Olofson at trial," Savage said.

And then during the trial, the prosecution told the judge it would not provide some information defense lawyers felt would clear their client, Savage continued. That included the fact that the rifle's manufacturer had been issued a recall notice for that very model in 1986 over an issue of guns inadvertently slipping into full automatic mode, if certain parts were worn or if certain ammunition was used.

Olofson eventually was convicted of and now sentenced for transferring a machine gun.

WND also reported bloggers had a heyday when a federal agent apparently assigned to the same office that did the Olofson investigation left her gun inside the secured area at Milwaukee's airport.

The incident had gotten only nominal publicity, with mostly local reporters carrying the story. According to the Associated Press, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agent, who was not identified by authorities, left her gun in the restroom at the conclusion of a long trip.

The special agent alerted authorities at some time later, after she had left the airport, according to Guy Thomas, a spokesman. He said the abandoned gun was recovered either by local authorities or a civilian.

[rm9792]

He was sentenced to 30 months.

. He said the abandoned gun was recovered either by local authorities or a civilian.

Doesnt that cover everyone?