Here's a sad story. Is there a lesson?

[Scott Murray]

A man comes home to find an intruder rummaging for stuff to steal. He holds him at gunpoint. But the BG's buddy, who had been upstairs, comes in and takes a shot. The first BG then goes on a rampage and kills all seven family members.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/06/06/indian ... index.html

If the first BG had a weapon visible, should the homeowner have shot him without warning, and then assumed a defensive position while clearing for others? What if he didn't have a visible weapon? Could he have found a position with better cover while attempting to hold the first BG? Could other family members have armed themselves, and contributed? I'm reminded that "wolves run in packs."

I'll be thinking about this for a while. I may need to discuss it with my family.

Scott

[flintknapper]

Longtooth,

When we shot a couple of weeks ago, do you remember asking me why I carry "cuffs"?

This is one of those "situations" I was talking about.

[Chris]

i've searched a lot of buildings and houses alone. a few times, i've found people. NEVER EVER assume this person is alone. i have asked people before if they were the only ones around and they tell me 'yes', only to have their accomplice come walking up 2 seconds later. more than anything else, remember one word...CONTROL! stay in control. don't start farting with one guy leaving your back to an unchecked door. make that person do what you want them to. gunfire isn't really the cause of a lot of cops' deaths, it was the lack of control that got them killed.

i know this isn't the scenario that most regular joes are comfortable, or familiar,with, but it's certainly something to think about. just don't try to be a hero. a dead hero does no one any good. nothing disrespectful, but the tyler shooting is a good example of that. don't rush into something you are incapable, or ill-prepared to handle. get help. if that means rousting out the neighbors with their shotguns and torches, get help.

[flintknapper]

Well, under PC 9.03 "Confinement as justifiable force"

Confinement is justified when force is justified by this chapter if the actor takes reasonable measures to terminate the confinement as soon as he knows he safely can unless the person confined has been arrested for an offense.


I'm assuming this covers handcuffing a person who has entered your house without permission. However, does this cover handcuffing somebody in public who continues to attempt to attack you (think aggravated robbery or murder) even after you have told him to stop and pulled your handgun on him? Does that mean you can handcuff them and leave them handcuffed until police arrive?

This subject will likely foster a lot of discussion (a good thing), and will probably get off track (inevitable).

"Confinement" vs. "Citizens Arrest" may have implications that overlap. In general, I wouldn't encourage either one, except under very specific circumstances.

Article 14.01(a) of the Code of Criminal Procedure permits private citizens to make arrests only if the offense is classed as a felony or as an offense against the public peace


Since I brought the subject up, let me be the first to say: Do not attempt to confine, arrest, or otherwise physically restrain someone unless you have been trained to do so AND the action is immediately necessary to insure your safety or that of another party. Otherwise, you will succeed only in putting yourself at increased risk.


In the case cited, if the intruder were being held at gunpoint (and you're sure this is not just a criminal trespass) then you might toss him a set of cuffs (don't try to put them on him/her yourself) and demand that he put them on.

His options become: Compliance (which lowers the threat level to me), Non-Compliance (which leaves him covered by a nervous gun-owner), or Fleeing (which works for me). All of this assumes time and circumstances permit.


O.K., I'll sit back and watch now.

[propellerhead]

There was another thread on here or on another message board but all the trained security folks and all the LEOs advised not to attempt to handcuff a BG if you are not trained for it. It looks easy on TV but in reality it is easy for a BG to resist and overpower you if you are not trained.

I know that doesn't answer the questions in the original post. I don't have an answer as to what I would do. I know now that I will have to be very vigilant until the police arrive and take over.

[Paladin]

I think you know where I stand on this one Scott.

[longtooth]

Yes Flint, I can see the need there. I have decided that cuffing or restraining will not be what I do unless really bad communication makes LEO arrival a LONG time off. Perps may get awful tired or achey in the postition I make them assume Til the GGs arrive. If you have any thoughts that another may be somewhere else in the house the defensive position w/ cover is the best thing to do. Make BG # one stand w/ his back to you as you would but make him stand between you & hallway or door way to rest of the house that may have an accomplice in it til LEO arrive & let them do what they are trained to do.

[64zebra]

good scenario discussion....
I personally would NOT attempt to handcuff/restrain, nor would I have another person do it while covering them with my weapon. I say hold em at gunpoint until the cavalry gets there. This means account for all your family/innocents get them behind you and have them join you in arms as my wife already knows to do :). I wouldn't take the chance of the scumbag over-powering me or getting in a hand to hand situation. If I already have control with my mossberg pointed at him, why lose that advantage? Although I'd like to see him arrested, etc...if he runs he runs. Better that than I lose the upper hand in order to cuff him and I get hurt along with my wife and kid.
and Heaven forbid he doesn't comply with my requests or advances toward us......

[stevie_d_64]

This has come up before, and there are good arguments "for" and "against" the issue of "detainment", "restraint" and "custody" of someone by the means of handcuffs or other constraints...

The biggest issue, not germane to the method of detainment or restraint is the liability issue...While that person is under your control, YOU are liable for their well-being...

If that person gets hurt/injured or killed while in restraints or detainment its your rear end that is liable...

I believe the same holds to some degree with Law Enforcement when they place someone in custody...They try to get you cuffed and stuffed into a vehicle so they don't have to mess with you that much anymore...

To me, its a responsibility I would rather not be accountable for if I can avoid it...

So what do you do until the calvary arrives??? I believe everyone acts in accordance with the law and common sense when you get right down to it...

I would imagine some things you could say when they do arrive that would help you from losing control of your situation, and until the arriving Law Enforcement personnel take custody of the problem at hand...

"I AM THE HOMEOWNER! I AM ARMED AND HAVE A (THE) SUSPECT(S) DETAINED AT GUNPOINT!"

In this case I would also conclude as a point of information and let the responding offices decide how to proceed:

"I DO NOT KNOW IF WE ARE ALONE, WHAT CAN I DO TO HELP YOU SAFELY GET CONTROL OF THIS SITUATION?" (at which point they should instruct you on what they want you to do, to which I would suggest you do.)

I'd say this in as calm and authoratative tone as possible, as to not give responding officers too much a reason to consider you a safety issue...

Of course, I have my own thoughts and ideas on all of this and do not recommend anyone take this for gospel...

It is, of course, something I consider well within my comfort zone and knowledge of what I believe one could do in certain situations...

There's half dozen ways and then some to handle situations like this, but having the confidence and knowledge of what you are capable of, and act upon that in as clear a mind as possible, I can't think of too many downsides to this...

But then again we are talking about life and death issues here sometimes...And that is a sobering reality we face everyday...

[kw5kw]

There is one other alternative:

Only if they had just say 'broken in' and hadn't threatened you harm in any way:

Homeowner (after locking yourself in your bedroom and getting 911 on the cell phone) [Speaking loudly enough so that the operator on the phone and the intruder can hear]: "I am the homeowner. I have a loaded firearm. I will not hesitate to use this firearm on you if you continue. I ask you to leave and no foul, just leave and don't come back. The police are on their way. If... IF you persist and come into this room, then I will not hesitate to discharge my weapon."

Wait then for the LEO's to arrive while keeping 911 on the cell phone.

Why a cell phone? A cell phone's wires can't be cut.

Russ

[HOSSISFREE]

If I am reading the story right, the home owner pulled a gun on BG#1. BG#2 fired at homeowner (BG#2 w/gun). Then BG#1 started shooting everybody (BG#1 w/gun).

Walk in, see BG#1 in my home with gun. Empty magazine while pulling second mag out and putting my back to the wall. Reload and clear the house. Find BG#2 in my home with gun. Empty magazine. Call Police.

Any BG with a gun in my home will not be detained! BG ain't there with a gun to be polite to me.

Hoss

[Photoman]

Distance is your friend. I would never try to physically detain someone in my house. At the point I have an intruder in front of my gun, they have three choices (a) leave (b) stay still (c) move toward me.

If (a) fine. If (B) fine. If (c) I have no choice but to shoot.

And always remember what got Wild Bill (and Jesse James) killed....keep your back covered!

[one eyed fatman]

If I am reading the story right, the home owner pulled a gun on BG#1. BG#2 fired at homeowner (BG#2 w/gun). Then BG#1 started shooting everybody (BG#1 w/gun).

Walk in, see BG#1 in my home with gun. Empty magazine while pulling second mag out and putting my back to the wall. Reload and clear the house. Find BG#2 in my home with gun. Empty magazine. Call Police.

Any BG with a gun in my home will not be detained! BG ain't there with a gun to be polite to me.

Hoss

Finally a sensible post. Thank you.