Trigger pull "inside baseball" - Compare and contrast.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Forum:

Can y'all please chime in on the ins/outs, pros/cons, of trigger pulls?

I haven't shot as many pistols as many of you, but I am trying to get a feel for
which handguns have good trigger pulls, as well as which have undesirable trigger
pulls. Not just the "pounds" of trigger pulls, but the smoothness of action too.

Share with the forum what is your experience with trigger pull.

How about comparing "single" trigger guns with "double" triggers such as Glock, XD,
Ruger? Revolvers vs. semi-auto's?

As far as pounds of trigger pull, I assume a light trigger would be preferable.
If so, why would a Smith and Wesson Sigma have such a hard trigger?
It seems that a hard trigger would adversely effect your aim.

Sometimes I feel like trigger pull is like wine-tasting - only the true insiders can
tell the difference.

The floor is open sports fans. :-)

SIA

[mrvmax]

The best trigger pull I have experience is on a Para Ordnance LDA trigger. The Kahr DA trigger is pretty good too.

[Mithras61]

I've shot several long guns & hand guns. Please take this all as FWIW & IMHO, because I'm a pretty large fellow & have strong hands, so my experiences may not match up to other folks.

In my experience, the best triggers are on the 1911s. They're short, smooth, and (in the words of Col. Jeff Cooper) "break like a glass rod." I've never encountered one that had any mush or take-up to deal with. Most of the ones I've shot run 3 to 5 lbs pull, and have very short resets.

Long gun triggers vary too much. Two otherwise identical models can have wildly different triggers (see the M16A2 for example). I tend to believe that this is part of why so many after-market trigger groups are available.

Double-action triggers as a class seem long & heavy to me. I don't think of them as unusable, just long & heavy. Of course, in actual DA mode, you are cocking the hammer before you release it, so it will be longer & heavier in that mode than in SA mode (manual hammer cock first), where you are just tripping the sear.

My XD .45 Compact has a VERY long pull for an SA, but it doesn't cause me problems now that I've gotten used to it. I'd prefer it shorter, but it is (to my surprise) not nearly as bad as some of the reviews led me to believe it would be (very smooth and not stiff or feeling like its grinding something).

[mr.72]

Forum:

Can y'all please chime in on the ins/outs, pros/cons, of trigger pulls?

I'll give my opinion. Remember I have been a gun owner for only about 1.5 years and had not shot any guns prior to buying my first pistol in 2008.

You have basically trigger weight, which you know.
Take-up is the amount of slack in the trigger before it begins to engage the mechanics of the trigger, sort of free-play.
Over-travel is the amount that the trigger can be pulled beyond the point at which it breaks.
Then there is the general feeling of the whole travel including how it breaks.
There is also some amount that most triggers must be released before they are reset, and if this is a large amount it can affect your feeling of being able to fire a second shot quickly.
And of course many will debate the overall travel distance of the trigger, as well as the actual feeling of the surface and shape of the trigger itself.

OK, so the pros and cons:

In my humble opinion, the thing that defines whether a trigger's feel, shape, pull length, weight, etc. are a "pro" or a "con" has almost completely to do with what you are used to. For example, I am used to heavier DAO pistol triggers. A hunting rifle is very, very uncomfortable for me to shoot, and a SAO pistol with a light trigger is even more uncomfortable for me to shoot.

However the typical "pros" of a light, short trigger pull is that it is light and short, so if you are used to light, short trigger pulls, then you will find these triggers comfortable and easier to keep on target. The "cons" of such a trigger is that maybe an AD is more likely for various reasons, mostly having to do with the fact that accidents that result in a complete pull of the trigger are much more likely when the trigger is light weight and has a very short travel.

The typical "pros" of a hard or long trigger pull is that it may be less likely to result in an AD. And the typical "cons" are that if you are used to a light, short trigger pull, then you will have to learn a new skill to shoot one of these accurately.

I rarely hear anyone tout the "pros" of any noticeable trigger take-up or over-travel. Those are "cons". Sometimes if there is an excessive amount of take-up, then you may tend to "stage" the trigger, or pull it part of the distance before you are actually ready to fire, and this is basically not a very good habit to get into.

As far as pounds of trigger pull, I assume a light trigger would be preferable.

Preferable if that is what you are used to. However, if you can adjust to shooting a DAO long or hard trigger, then the perceived reduction in AD probability might be a costless benefit.

If so, why would a Smith and Wesson Sigma have such a hard trigger?

Same reason a DA revolver has a hard trigger. Sigma has a 9lb or so trigger. a DAO revolver may have a 12lb trigger. The length of travel is about the same. Only real difference is that the Sigma trigger tends to flex a little bit (it's plastic).

But the reason is to reduce the chances of an AD. That's one reason anyway.

The other reason is that a Sigma is truly a DAO pistol, as a revolver can be DAO. That is, the striker is completely cocked by the trigger action. It is not partially-cocked by the slide movement like a Kahr or Glock. So the trigger must necessarily have enough resistance to compress the striker spring in order to cock the striker, much like a DAO revolver must twist the hammer spring to pull back the hammer with the trigger pull. A lighter trigger in a Sigma would necessitate a lighter striker spring, which may result in lighter strikes. To get the trigger in the Sigma down to 5lb would probably require a striker spring that would not ignite most pistol primers.

In a Glock or Kahr (and probably others), the striker is cocked part of the way by action of the slide so some leverage can be applied to the remainder of the pull to gear down the trigger pull and result in a lighter trigger action. A Kahr has about a 7.5 lb trigger and Glocks can go down as low as 3-4 lb with the right mods.

It seems that a hard trigger would adversely effect your aim.

It would, until you practiced and learned to control it. However, if you are used to shooting pistol with a SA target trigger then certainly you are likely to aim funny with my Sigma. :)

Actually I think the main reason that hard triggers get such a bad rap is because shooters have learned with rifles early in life and have an expectation of a very short, light trigger. The main reason, IMHO, the Sigma gets such a bad rap for the trigger is because of the frequent comparison to Glock in terms of the features and functionality of the gun, but the trigger is much different than a Glock trigger. So compared to the competition, it seems awfully hard. But if you compare a Sigma to a hammerless revolver, it's not that bad. My dad has an H&R .22LR revolver that has the world's hardest DA trigger pull. I bet that thing is 20 lb. Makes my Sigma feel like high-end hunting rifle trigger.

[STI Shooter]

I own several XDs and several 1911s. By far the 1911 have my vote as having the best trigger pull. I shoot competitively and it really screws with my mind changing back and forth. Some handguns are better for some things (eg. Competition ) and some are better for others (eg. self defence ). It is something you learn to live with or spend a lot of money on trigger jobs.

[psehorne]

I'll give my opinion.

Great post, mr.72. Thanks for a thorough dissertation.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

mr. 72 et al:

Thanks for all your contributions.

I was reading one of the latest gun mags (free at Wal-mart!) which stated
that a cocked and locked 1911 with one in the pipe, SA, would be the best
self defense gun since the light smooth trigger pull would allow you to get
off an accurate first shot in a self defense situation.

Sounds right, IMHO.

SIA

[Mithras61]

I was reading one of the latest gun mags (free at Wal-mart!) which stated
that a cocked and locked 1911 with one in the pipe, SA, would be the best
self defense gun since the light smooth trigger pull would allow you to get
off an accurate first shot in a self defense situation.

Sounds right, IMHO.

SIA

Well, that & the natural POA of the handgun. No offense intended to Glockers, but they just don't POINT right for me!

[WildBill]

Sometimes I feel like trigger pull is like wine-tasting - only the true insiders can tell the difference. SIA

Trigger pull is like wine-tasting. The best wine is the one that you like the best. Trigger pulls have to be paired with a gun and purpose, just like wine can be paired with food. The optimum trigger will depend on whether you are target shooting, bench rest shooting, hunting or using the gun for self-defense. On the other hand, just because you get used to drinking a bad wine doesn't make it a good wine. So much for analogies.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Anyone have comments on the pros/cons of "double trigger" models
such as Glock, XD, Ruger? As compared to "single trigger" models?

SIA

[FL450]

If your interested in a Dao with no safety try the Sig P250
it has an avg of a 5.5 lb pull albiet long but smooth with little or no stacking.
It does take around 500 rounds to retrain your muscle memory if your a DA/SA shooter.
In my personal opinion and worth just that I like the lack of a safety to remember in a panic situation ( the long trigger pull being the safety) and only having to remember the feel of one type of action.
Just my opinion.

[carlson1]

I shot 1911's for years. I do own a Glock and enjoy shooting it. I purchased a Sig 239SAS with the DAK trigger about 9 months ago. It is quickly becoming my favorite. I like the DAK trigger.

[A-R]

Great responses so far in this thread. Love Wild Bill's wine analogy, especially the part about ...

just because you get used to drinking a bad wine doesn't make it a good wine.

Those are my feelings exactly, and is really the one and only point of contention I have with Mr. 72's lengthy, worthwhile, and well-reasoned post. I believe a shorter/lighter trigger pull is inherently more accurate than a longer/heavier pull because of simple physics, kinesiology, and some ergonomics. The lighter and shorter a movement of the human body (including a trigger finger), then inherently the more controlled that movement can be.

Not saying there are not people who can shoot very well with a heavy DAO trigger - obviously there are, and these people are very talented pistol marksman. But once these people get over the "oh this feels different" strangeness of a lighter trigger, I posit that they will shoot BETTER with a lighter trigger. This is similar to the theory of athletes using weights/resistance while training certain movements (ankle weights for runners, large rubber bands for arm movements like pitchers and quarterbacks, the weighted "donut" on a baseball bat swung in the on-deck circle). The principle is that practicing with higher resistance will make the athlete quicker/faster/better when same motion is done at game time with lighter weight.

[psehorne]

If your interested in a Dao with no safety try the Sig P250
it has an avg of a 5.5 lb pull albiet long but smooth with little or no stacking.

I've seen the work stacking in magazine articles. What does it refer to?