Must read for all conscientious gun owners

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A-R
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Must read for all conscientious gun owners

#1

Post by A-R » Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:05 am

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/a ... ting-range" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The whole experience gives me pause. How many times have you been at the range and looked down your nose at somebody shooting a HiPoint or Jennings? How many times have you silently thought “idiot” when someone fumbles with their gun? How many times have you looked askance at shooters using the “wrong” grip? I know I do all of those things almost every time I’m at a public shooting range…but I won’t do it anymore. What if those “idiots” are really just people like this woman…inexperienced, poor, and without anyone to teach them how to do things right? By the luck of the draw, this woman pulled up a chair next to a professional firearms instructor at the range. She could have just as easily sat next to “Bubba” who will tell her that her gun is a piece of _______ and that there’s no way she could ever learn to defend herself in an hour.

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Re: Must read for all conscientious gun owners

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Post by RPBrown » Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:08 am

I have to say that I have been somewhat guilty of this. However, this article has changed my mind and I will think twice the next time.
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Re: Must read for all conscientious gun owners

#3

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:13 am

That's an excellent article! I just sent an email to Greg asking for permission to reprint it on http://www.TexasShooting.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.TexasFirearmsCoalition.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I'm ashamed to admit that I too have done exactly what he has admitted -- looked at someone's lower quality gun and/or poor gun-handling skills and inwardly shook my head. Never again, never again.

Chas.

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Re: Must read for all conscientious gun owners

#4

Post by Jumping Frog » Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:34 am

Thank you!

I believe I need to go about my daily life as an ambassador for our gun culture. This article opened my eyes to a different dimension to look at. I will cross post.
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Re: Must read for all conscientious gun owners

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Post by joe817 » Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:46 am

Excellent article and very good food for thought! Thanks for posting A-R! :tiphat:
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Re: Must read for all conscientious gun owners

#6

Post by The Annoyed Man » Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:57 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote:That's an excellent article! I just sent an email to Greg asking for permission to reprint it on http://www.TexasShooting.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.TexasFirearmsCoalition.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I'm ashamed to admit that I too have done exactly what he has admitted -- looked at someone's lower quality gun and/or poor gun-handling skills and inwardly shook my head. Never again, never again.

Chas.
Me too. Interestingly, all but one of my Basic Handgun Safety students have been women. I've tried never to be condescending toward them as female shooters, but I confess that I've had trouble hiding my disdain for poor-quality weapons. The thing is, I've always tried to couch it in terms of advice to upgrade as soon as possible; but it has never occurred to me that maybe this HiPoint/Jennings/Bryco/Jimenez is all the gun the person could afford.

Back when I was involved in motorcycle-related retail sales, I used to face this dilemma with helmet sales. People would come in and look at the array of available helmets. At the time, a cheap full-face helmet from Ghibli with the minimal DOT-mandated rating was maybe about $59.95, and you could get a pretty good racing quality helmet from Shoei, Arai, or Bell in the $150-$200 range (how times have changed, n'est pas?). Of course, I always tried to steer the customer to the more expensive helmets — NOT because I was trying to make a buck.....I received no commission.....but because I genuinely felt like the human brain was worth spending the extra money to protect. (I should point out that this was my 2nd, part-time job....my first and primary job was working in the ER.) And if the customer patently refused to spend the extra money, I might say something like "Ok..... It's your brain......"

I confess that I always saw it as the other person "cheaping out" and being irresponsible, and never actually thought that maybe, this was truly all they could afford. That was wrong of me.

I guess that gun sales are kind of the same way. I've always been blessed with enough money to be able to buy the gun I wanted, instead of settling for the cheapest gun I could find.

I do know this..... if a young single mom whom I already knew were to ask me to help her pick out a gun, and all she had was the price of a brand new HiPoint in her pocket, and there was a used Glock 19 (or something similar) for $50-$100 more in the display case, I would give her the difference as a gift and steer her toward the better gun. I can replace the money. I can't replace friends.
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Re: Must read for all conscientious gun owners

#7

Post by MoJo » Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:09 pm

Guilty as charged. My NRA Training Counselor broke me of the habit when he said, "A High Point or a Jennings may be all the shooter can afford to protect himself and his family with, don't make him ashamed because it's not a Glock, or SIG."
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Re: Must read for all conscientious gun owners

#8

Post by G26ster » Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:54 pm

"If it's on the Internet, it must be true."

I must admit I get a kick out of the Hi-Point bashing AND kudos on the Web. If Internet lore is to be believed, the Hi-Point carbines are cheap, but "go bang every time," are fun to shoot, and generally receive great reviews. On the other hand, the Hi-Point handguns are cheap junk because....??? Well because that's what the Internet lore says. After all, a lot of people seem know someone who's uncle's, cousin's friend's sister-in-law's boyfriend had one once and it was junk. They never owned one, but they "heard" the horror stories. And, of course, they read it on the web.

Seriously though, I'd like to know if there is any definitive proof/data that Hi-Point handguns have any more malfunctions, failures to fire, inaccuracy, recalls, etc. than S&W, Baretta, Colt, Sig, Ruger, etc. Sure they're cheap and not made with the finest materials. But where is the "concrete evidence" that they are junk? Let's see, I'm a "for profit" manufacturer who makes a product that I warranty for the first owner and all subsequent owners, and will repair/replace at anytime for free, but it is junk. Seems like a hard way to stay profitable to me.

In my collection, my Sig had feeding and magazine issues (fixed by Sig), my Browning had feeding issues, (returned to and fixed by Browning), my Baretta went back to Baretta because it could not be re-assembled after field stripping (Baretta replaced the gun), my Diamondback went back to Diamondback for trigger issues (replaced by Diamondback). My Glocks have never failed, nor have any but one of my late 19th century, or early 20th century C&R handguns.

So, inquiring minds want to know.

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Re: Must read for all conscientious gun owners

#9

Post by KC5AV » Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:57 pm

G26ster wrote:"If it's on the Internet, it must be true."

I must admit I get a kick out of the Hi-Point bashing AND kudos on the Web. If Internet lore is to be believed, the Hi-Point carbines are cheap, but "go bang every time," are fun to shoot, and generally receive great reviews. On the other hand, the Hi-Point handguns are cheap junk because....??? Well because that's what the Internet lore says. After all, a lot of people seem know someone who's uncle's, cousin's friend's sister-in-law's boyfriend had one once and it was junk. They never owned one, but they "heard" the horror stories. And, of course, they read it on the web.

Seriously though, I'd like to know if there is any definitive proof/data that Hi-Point handguns have any more malfunctions, failures to fire, inaccuracy, recalls, etc. than S&W, Baretta, Colt, Sig, Ruger, etc. Sure they're cheap and not made with the finest materials. But where is the "concrete evidence" that they are junk? Let's see, I'm a "for profit" manufacturer who makes a product that I warranty for the first owner and all subsequent owners, and will repair/replace at anytime for free, but it is junk. Seems like a hard way to stay profitable to me.

So, inquiring minds want to know.
It certainly isn't definitive, but I've seen enough Hi-Points fail to feed or eject in classes to believe that there are issues with them. Saturday, we had about 15 people on our firing line, and 1 of those shooters had a Hi-Point. It malfunctioned several times within the 50 round qualification. There was one other shooter who had feed issues as well, but not as many as the Hi-Point. All manufacturers are subject to issues, but (at least in my experience) Hi-Point is more prone to failures.

This is just one day, but I've seen it repeated on multiple occasions. That's enough for me. That said, if it's really all the shooter can afford, it's at least a start.
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Re: Must read for all conscientious gun owners

#10

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:08 pm

KC5AV wrote:
G26ster wrote:"If it's on the Internet, it must be true."

I must admit I get a kick out of the Hi-Point bashing AND kudos on the Web. If Internet lore is to be believed, the Hi-Point carbines are cheap, but "go bang every time," are fun to shoot, and generally receive great reviews. On the other hand, the Hi-Point handguns are cheap junk because....??? Well because that's what the Internet lore says. After all, a lot of people seem know someone who's uncle's, cousin's friend's sister-in-law's boyfriend had one once and it was junk. They never owned one, but they "heard" the horror stories. And, of course, they read it on the web.

Seriously though, I'd like to know if there is any definitive proof/data that Hi-Point handguns have any more malfunctions, failures to fire, inaccuracy, recalls, etc. than S&W, Baretta, Colt, Sig, Ruger, etc. Sure they're cheap and not made with the finest materials. But where is the "concrete evidence" that they are junk? Let's see, I'm a "for profit" manufacturer who makes a product that I warranty for the first owner and all subsequent owners, and will repair/replace at anytime for free, but it is junk. Seems like a hard way to stay profitable to me.

So, inquiring minds want to know.
It certainly isn't definitive, but I've seen enough Hi-Points fail to feed or eject in classes to believe that there are issues with them. Saturday, we had about 15 people on our firing line, and 1 of those shooters had a Hi-Point. It malfunctioned several times within the 50 round qualification. There was one other shooter who had feed issues as well, but not as many as the Hi-Point. All manufacturers are subject to issues, but (at least in my experience) Hi-Point is more prone to failures.

This is just one day, but I've seen it repeated on multiple occasions. That's enough for me. That said, if it's really all the shooter can afford, it's at least a start.
This is much like my experience. I've had several students take my class with a Hi-Point 9mm and not one has made it through the CHL quals without a malfunction.

Chas.

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Re: Must read for all conscientious gun owners

#11

Post by Pawpaw » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:12 pm

Check out this video. It covers the abuse it took and how customer service handled it after knowing it had been "torture tested".

[video][/video]

I'm not advocating Hi-Point or any other cheap firearm. I am advocating being armed, even if that's all you can afford.
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Re: Must read for all conscientious gun owners

#12

Post by JRG » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:44 pm

Excellent article!!

Makes me want to start doing more!

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Re: Must read for all conscientious gun owners

#13

Post by jmra » Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:29 pm

Great article. It reminds me of a time my wife and I were sharing a stall and a young woman set up next to us. She took out her gun and tried several times to insert the magazine backwards. She finally figured it out and started shooting. Her hands shook badly and the shots were actually hitting the ground in front of the target 10 ft away.
I immediately started packing our things when my wife finished her magazine. My wife looked at me like I was crazy wanting to know why we were leaving. I pointed to the woman in the next stall and said we were leaving and telling the front office about this woman before she shoots someone.
My wife looked over at the woman who at this point had tears rolling down her cheeks. I sat in the lobby for a long time as my wife first sat and talked with the woman and then helped her work through gun safety and shooting techniques. The woman left the range a different person, not only because someone took time to show her how to properly handle the firearm, but because someone took time to talk to her about what she was going through that brought her to the range in the first place.
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Re: Must read for all conscientious gun owners

#14

Post by RoyGBiv » Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:56 pm

Great article. Thanks very much for posting.
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Re: Must read for all conscientious gun owners

#15

Post by AndyC » Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:53 pm

Good article - not much new in it for me personally but it's a good article. I've always seen it as being there to help someone; I don't care what gun they own (as long as it works and it's not a danger to anybody), because I've never been able to afford top-of-the-line gear myself.

I used to compete with a pre-owned CZ75, later with a Chinese Norinco 1911 and these days my sole pistol is a Philippines-made Rock Island Armory 1911. I've literally been chastised for obviously not having "pride of ownership" and accused of having "the best gun in the trailer park" - I smiled but I managed to thump both of those guys, scores-wise. I guess they don't pack skills in with expensive purchases any more.

A neighbor's son bought a 9mm Hi-point a couple months ago at a gun-show and got me to take him to the range to learn how to shoot it. It was pretty reliable (1 failure-to-feed towards the end of 100 rounds) and far more accurate than I expected (almost a single ragged hole at 7 yards), but I think he figured out for himself that the ergonomics weren't quite as nice as that of my pistol designed over 100 years ago; I didn't say anything negative about his pistol any more than I'd say something about his girlfriend. Point is, he has something he can use and he can upgrade if/when he decides to.
jmra wrote:I learned a lot that day, my wife made sure of it.
That's a humbling moment, to be sure :(
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